Ruger SASS Vaqueros

[Cholla]

I have a set of Ruger SASS Vaqueros, which means they have the Montado hammers. Someone told me they thought that they were not allowed in NCOWS shoots. Yet, when I look in the Tally book, I see no mention of them. So I assume they are okay. Am I correct?

[Yuma Kid]

Paako Hunter,
Sorry, but they are not legal for NCOWS. As with all questions of "is it legal".  It boils down to "Did they have them this way during our time period of 1865-1899" Colt never offered a lowered hammer configuration on the Single Action Army.
Yuma

[Cholla]

Paako Hunter,
Sorry, but they are not legal for NCOWS. As with all questions of "is it legal".  It boils down to "Did they have them this way during our time period of 1865-1899" Colt never offered a lowered hammer configuration on the Single Action Army.
Yuma

Thanks for replying. Can you direct me to the place in the tally book that specifies that?

[Yuma Kid]

Paako Hunter,
The part referring to "Did they have it....." is in section 7-2 of the by-laws

" 7-2. No modern (post 1899) firearms will be allowed unless they are authentic reproductions of traditional firearms or very markedly resemble traditional firearms. Traditional firearms are defined as those manufactured prior to or during the era 1865-1899 and in documented use on the North American Frontier within that time period."

The "Approved" and "Dis-Approved" lists are both a blessing and a curse, because we just can't keep up with the ever changing world of new firearms in a timely fashion.  I will past the issue of the SASS Rugers to our National Judge who is in charge of those lists.
Yuma

[Cholla]

Thanks. I have other folks debating this very issue on Sassnet. I thought they were not allowed but most are telling me they are. I want to shoot in the nationals and was looking for a definitive yes or no.
Thanks again.

[Major 2]

I went ( don't often) to the SASS Wire to read what was being offered....

here is the Skinny, ( I'm also a passed NCOWS National Judge )

Your hammers are not specifically mentinoned by discription or part in the Tally Book approved or un-approved ...that is true.

Yuma has given you correct information ....the Hammers you describe would not pass muster at the National .

The Question arrose concerning the Ruger Montado , (which has the same hammer) during my stewardship,
The Hammer was the bone of contention ...

You could contact Trap the current Nat'l  Judge, and ask for a rulling or request a vote on the subject...
However, the question would have to stand the Committee of Authenticity.



similar lower hammer is on the  Cimarron "Eliminator"  which is listed on the un-approved list.

[Cliff Fendley]

Maybe we need to consider adding something about Ruger Montado style hammers and/or other lowered hammers to the unapproved list to clarify this. I know this has come up before, a friend went out and bought a set of SASS Vaqueros when he first joined NCOWS because a guy at a gun shop told him THIS is what you've GOT to have for cowboy action shooting 

The first thing I do anymore when someone is interested in NCOWS is to tell them do not go out and let some guy at a gun shop tell you what you need. Come to shoots, borrow guns, look things over, ask questions, etc and decide what you want before you even go shopping.

[Cholla]

Thanks. I will get correct hammers. Next question: if I were to convert my Miroku Winchester to an original length stroke would it be NCOWS legal?

[Coffinmaker]

I'm not a current NCOWS member.  Was almost a NCOWS member, but life in general intervened.  HOWEVER:  I am and was an accomplished Gunplumber.  I cannot in good conscience suggest you attempt to change the stroke on your Miroku.  While there is a way to do that, the possibility exists the rifle would not time up and run as it should.  Plus, I think you would find the cost of prototype parts to be very prohibitive.  In fact, a lot prohibitive.

If you are determined to shoot NCOWS, you may well find it much easier and cheaper to start with NCOWS compliant guns from the start.  Your Rugers can have the hammers changed out, but you would be much ahead to start with Uberti replica rifle that is already NCOWS compliant, or an 1892 replica or original,  Or even a "shooter" grade original '73.  When you go thru the "Tally Book" for approved guns, the list is huge.  Of course, having started out with "unapproved" guns does complicate it somewhat.  Perhaps partner with someone who already has a full compliment of approved guns??

[Major 2]

That is a catch 22

It is the Miroku Winchester that is UN-Approved by name ...the reason is the Factory short stroke.

IF the parts were even available and changed, would it be approved ?  I'd lean towards not...


That is for the Current Judge & his committee to consider then decide their recommendation yea or nea  to the Senators & Posse' reps
for verdict.

My feeling is it would be a tough sell , but in any case probably won't happen before this National...

[Cholla]

Thanks. I have a friend that is loaning me a rifle for the nationals. I was just thinking of the future.

[Coffinmaker]

Were I making suggestions (It appears I are), from the Approved list, I'd start with Either a Uberti 1866 or 1873, then go to either a reproduction 92, then a Marlin and then a Henry.  Seems strange, for me, who shoots 4 Henry rifles as my Main Match guns to list the Henry last, but some have a real problem with the Henry Hop and the HOT barrel.

With a good, quality action job and spring change, the 1866 and the 1873 can be incredibly FAST and light.  A well set up 1892 is not far, if at all behind.  '92s can be set up to run very well indeed.  Marlin is a problem.  New build guns have been less than desirable.  the older guns, are pricing themselves way out of line for what you get.  An 1860 Henry is all the styling you can want.  Super Fun to play with.  Very fast until you get tangled up on the follower.

Handguns are too numerous to go thru the list(s).  Shotguns are the same way.  I Shoot Cap Guns these days with Hammer Doubles for shotguns.  Way too much to choose from.

This is the funnest game around but oh boy can it ever get expensive. 

[Cholla]

Were I making suggestions (It appears I are), from the Approved list, I'd start with Either a Uberti 1866 or 1873, then go to either a reproduction 92, then a Marlin and then a Henry.  Seems strange, for me, who shoots 4 Henry rifles as my Main Match guns to list the Henry last, but some have a real problem with the Henry Hop and the HOT barrel.

With a good, quality action job and spring change, the 1866 and the 1873 can be incredibly FAST and light.  A well set up 1892 is not far, if at all behind.  '92s can be set up to run very well indeed.  Marlin is a problem.  New build guns have been less than desirable.  the older guns, are pricing themselves way out of line for what you get.  An 1860 Henry is all the styling you can want.  Super Fun to play with.  Very fast until you get tangled up on the follower.

Handguns are too numerous to go thru the list(s).  Shotguns are the same way.  I Shoot Cap Guns these days with Hammer Doubles for shotguns.  Way too much to choose from.

This is the funnest game around but oh boy can it ever get expensive. 

I eventually want to shoot SASS Classic Cowboy (I think...) which requires a pre-1880 rifle in .40 caliber or larger. And, I really like the idea of a USA-made rifle.  I love the style of the 1860. I'm slow enough now, I don't think learning the Henry hop is going to hurt much more. I believe my friend is bringing a 1860 to the next SASS shoot so I can use it in prep for the NCOWS Nationals. I don't expect to be competitive. I just want to experience it, especially when it's so close to home.

[Coffinmaker]

Paako,

The 1860 Henry, as well as the 1866 and 1873 reproductions and be HUGHLY improved with a simple spring change.  Change out the lever side springs to either Slixsprings or Smith Shop whisper springs, the the Main Spring to either a Main Spring from Slick Magic or again, the Smith Shop.  My only caution, is with a reduce main spring, seriously consider a reduced or clipped firing pin return spring.

[Bibbyman]

I think if I were going to shoot an 1860 with black powder, I would plan on wearing leather gloves. 

We shoot with one guy who shoots smokeless but wears leather gloves.  The gloves (at least the right hand) has the thumb and trigger finger cut short.

[OklaTom]

On the Miroku, it is true - the factory shorter stroke is what put it on the NCOWS Authenticity Committee.  I am on that Authenticity Committee, and actually purchased a Miroku to do the comparisons.  I still have it, as it is a nice rifle - just not authentic.  Besides the change to the lever and link interactions, there are other changes to the firing group that are also not authentic.  To be clear, Paako, the Authenticity Committee does not decide on its own what is allowed and what is not.  A request is made, the AC reviews it, then makes a recommendation to the Congress to vote on.  It is the members of Congress that give it a thumbs up or down.

Keep your Miroku, and use it as Classic Cowboy in SASS.  I am pretty sure it is OK to use in SASS - both the Miroku 1866 and 1873, but neither is allowed in NCOWS.  At the last meeting of Congress in March, the Miroku 1866 was also voted as unapproved for the same reasons as the 1873.

[bear tooth billy]

Paako, someone mentioned an original 73, I bought one several years ago for $950, put a
$200 liner in it and about $100 in springs and gunsmith visit. I've shot a couple thousand
rounds through it. I would not advise hammering it every weekend, but it's sure cool shooting
a 136 year old gun. Those Winchesters were built to last!!!!

                     BTB

[Major 2]

Paako, someone mentioned an original 73, I bought one several years ago for $950, put a
$200 liner in it and about $100 in springs and gunsmith visit. I've shot a couple thousand
rounds through it. I would not advise hammering it every weekend, but it's sure cool shooting
a 136 year old gun. Those Winchesters were built to last!!!!

                     BTB

PLUS 2  .... mine is 127 years young

[OklaTom]

My original Winchester 1873 is 120 years old, and did not cost much more than a Uberti replica.  That being said, finding one of that age, in shooting condition, and keeping it at the same price point as a Uberti is not easy these days. That would be why I have so many Cimarron Ubertis.

[bear tooth billy]

Rock Island auction sells a bunch of them, I believe at one auction they had over 70. Also
several 92s. If you are interested it would be worth the trip, you can look them over on
their website and then go to the Thursday preview and write down the numbers you are
interested in.


                               BTB