Spencer Blanks in 45LC from .410s

major · March 20, 2018, 12:02:58 PM

A few years ago I had a Spencer Carbine in 44-40 and I made blanks for it out of old cut down .410 cases. It worked pretty good but the blanks were kind of a pain to make. I had to collect the cases, cut them down to about 1.5", de-prime and re-prime them, fill with Black powder, make and install a thin wad on the top, star crimp and shoulder form the cartridge and finally run them all threw a MEC Supersizer that was set to the smallest size I could get it. I had a great time reenacting with it and at one reenactment I fired so many blanks that I raised a blister on my thumb from cocking the hammer. The .410 blanks sealed the breach so well that there was virtually zero blow back in the receiver.
I was thinking of getting back into using the Spencer but this time I wanted to use the rifle version as that would be more accurate for when the Spencers were first issued. I was also thinking of going with a 45LC version this time so I could skip some of the steps in the making of the cartridge. The only problem is that years ago I tried a cut down .410 Spencer blank in a friends 45 Spencer and the breach would not close. I know that there are several guns that are made to shoot both 45's and .410's. Would it be too involved to rework the breach in a 45 Spencer to accept both the 45 and the 410? Has anyone ever done this before?
I know that there are some that are using the Armisport Spencer in 56-50 but making blanks out of the larger shotgun shells also involves more work and expense and with the 45 I would be able to carry much more ammo into the field, because I just love to burn black powder. Any thoughts on this?

Blair · March 20, 2018, 12:18:06 PM

Major,

I wish I had something positive to offer you on this quest.
You might want to look at the .454 Casual brass to start with. OA case length maybe an issue with a star crimp.
I hope this suggestion may give you a starting point.

My best,
Blair

Chance · March 20, 2018, 12:43:21 PM

Can't say for the .45 Colt but blanks can be made for the .44/40 by cutting down .303 British cases. Cut the case to the length of a .44/40 cartridge and you can round of the front by heating it slightly and hammering it into a .45 Colt steel bullet mould just enough to take the sharp edge off. The case head may have to be trimmed a little to fit depending on the gun. The .303 brass is strong enough to be reloaded a number of times.

Chance

Blair · March 20, 2018, 01:05:41 PM

I agree with what Chance said.
.303 Brit, 32-40 and maybe even 30-30 may all be good starting point for brass. Access and cost of the cases are all major factors in this choice.
Rim dia. and thickness of the 45 Colt are also issues with a weapon chambered in 45 Colt. The .45 Casual may save a lot of work?

My best,
Blair

major · March 20, 2018, 01:35:14 PM

Quote from: Chance on March 20, 2018, 12:43:21 PM
Can't say for the .45 Colt but blanks can be made for the .44/40 by cutting down .303 British cases. Cut the case to the length of a .44/40 cartridge and you can round of the front by heating it slightly and hammering it into a .45 Colt steel bullet mould just enough to take the sharp edge off. The case head may have to be trimmed a little to fit depending on the gun. The .303 brass is strong enough to be reloaded a number of times.

Chance

Chance
Before I started using .410 hulls I made blanks for my 44-40 Henry out of 308 British brass. But that was when it was possible to buy them cheap. They are no longer cheap. When I was using them I got about 1000 from Navy Arms for about $40. I cut them to the proper length, filled them with BP, put a wad in the end and star crimped them. (they were already primed). But they had Berdan primers in them and were not reusable. I can get .410 hulls for next to nothing or free because the ones that I use have the opening on the hull warn so bad that they are no longer reloadable for shotgun use. But because I cut the end off of them for a shorter length that is not a problem. Also I don't need a casing that can be reloaded because I would not stop in the middle of a reenactment battle to pick them up. I would usually go back after the battle to see if I could clean up my mess but most of the time the kids had picked the spent hulls up for souvenirs. Or the battle took place in the middle of a field out in the middle of nowhere so the mess was not an issue.

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · March 20, 2018, 05:37:50 PM

Anything here? http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=search2

I recall folks talking about making blanks (for the Win '76?) using rolled card stock to simulate the bullet. maybe that wouldn't be safe for reenacting a skirmish.

major · March 20, 2018, 09:01:33 PM

I checked out the 454 Casull on the Starline site. The OAL of the brass is 1.37 to 1.38. As I remember it the OAL of a 45LC with a bullet is some where around 1.58. I don't know if the 454 will cycle in a Spencer as they are very case length sensitive. Has anyone ever tried star crimped 454 in a Spencer?

major · March 20, 2018, 09:17:00 PM

I made some searches on the web and got the dimensions of the flange of both the 45 and the .410. The flange of the 410 is 0.528 and the 45 is 0.512. The smaller size of the 45 probably accounts for the reason that a .410 will not let the breach on a Spencer in 45 close. If the recess of the 45 Spencer was enlarged to 0.528 than I think this would allow both the 45 and the cut down .410 to chamber, which is probably what they have done to the guns that will fire both 45's and .410's. What do you think?

Chance · March 21, 2018, 04:59:47 PM

Quote from: major on March 20, 2018, 01:35:14 PM
Chance
Before I started using .410 hulls I made blanks for my 44-40 Henry out of 308 British brass. But that was when it was possible to buy them cheap. They are no longer cheap. When I was using them I got about 1000 from Navy Arms for about $40. I cut them to the proper length, filled them with BP, put a wad in the end and star crimped them. (they were already primed). But they had Berdan primers in them and were not reusable. I can get .410 hulls for next to nothing or free because the ones that I use have the opening on the hull warn so bad that they are no longer reloadable for shotgun use. But because I cut the end off of them for a shorter length that is not a problem. Also I don't need a casing that can be reloaded because I would not stop in the middle of a reenactment battle to pick them up. I would usually go back after the battle to see if I could clean up my mess but most of the time the kids had picked the spent hulls up for souvenirs. Or the battle took place in the middle of a field out in the middle of nowhere so the mess was not an issue.

Fair comment major. Guess the re-enactors over here aren't used to large events such as you have and collecting brass afterwards is probably not too much of a problem.

Chance

Blair · March 31, 2018, 02:56:49 PM

Major,

As I pointed out earlier, the small and thin rim dia. of the original .45 Colt does not lend itself well to repeating arms.
The under cut rim on the newer made solid head brass cases (post WWII) allows the modern repeaters in .45 Colt to function better during extraction. (more for the extractor to grip, plus the extractor can be made stronger)
Companies like Winchester new this (or found it out through experiments, this is why they never made one of their repeating arm in .45 Colt).
My best,
Blair

major · March 31, 2018, 03:21:42 PM

Blair
Are you talking about guns like the 1873 rifle/carbine? Because I thought that they did make them in 45 Colt, I know that they made them in 44-40.
Major

Blair · March 31, 2018, 04:34:18 PM

Major,

.44WCF/44-40 yes!
Not in .45 Colt.
My best,
Blair

major · March 31, 2018, 04:43:28 PM

OK, thanks for the info