.45 Cowboy Special load troubles

[hp246]

I was working up a load today for use in my .45s for .45 Cowboy Special with Winchester WST.  So as not to break any rules here, I won't give the load data.  But I started using the same load that I use in my Bullseye Wadcutter .45ACP gun using WST behind a 200 gr Zero semi-wadcutter bullet.  I tried the same load in my Uberti's in the .45 CS load.  Same 200 gr Zero bullet.  The overall case length in my .45 ACP is 1.235 (  I know, a bit short, but my gun likes the).  The overall length in .45 CS was 1.275.  About 40% of the same loads in the .45 CS just gave a Pfft squib.  I upped the powder by .10 grain and no problem.  Think I'm going back to the Trail Boss in that short little .45 CS case.

[Coffinmaker]

HP,
You may well have been mixing Apples and Pomegranates.  First a CAVEAT:  I no longer refer to Reloading Manuels.  With BP and Subs you don't need them.  Load to the Bullet Base and Done.  HOWEVER:

The internal case volume may not have a crossover value.  One may have more volume than the other.  The internal volume may well not be directly related to external case dimensions.  When loading smokeless powder, I learned many Lustrum ago hoping for crossover values with propellents in cartridge cases is a lot like playing Russian Roulette.  If you don't have specific load data developed under controlled conditions and your essentially "Flying Blind" it can get nasty real quick.  Yours squibbed.  What if ...............

[hp246]

HP,
You may well have been mixing Apples and Pomegranates.  First a CAVEAT:  I no longer refer to Reloading Manuels.  With BP and Subs you don't need them.  Load to the Bullet Base and Done.  HOWEVER:

The internal case volume may not have a crossover value.  One may have more volume than the other.  The internal volume may well not be directly related to external case dimensions.  When loading smokeless powder, I learned many Lustrum ago hoping for crossover values with propellents in cartridge cases is a lot like playing Russian Roulette.  If you don't have specific load data developed under controlled conditions and your essentially "Flying Blind" it can get nasty real quick.  Yours squibbed.  What if ...............

Exactly.  I was just throwing this out there as an example/learning point for those playing with the .45 CS.  All the advice I've received on loading .45 CS is to load the same as .45 ACP.  My BE load is on the light end in the loading manuals for .45 ACP.  I tried using that same data in the .45 CS.  Obviously, from that example, not good advice.  I think you are right on the internal dimension of the case being a tad bit bigger, as the .45 ACP actually has a slight taper to it while the .45 CS is straight walled like it's big daddy .45 Colt.  In addition, the bullet seating just a bit shallower leaves a bit more empty space in the case.  

[Jefro]

Howdy hp246, while it may not be a tapper like 45acp the brass is thinner at the mouth, the volume is right at the same as 45acp. Normally I use 3f BP and a 200gr BL. For smokeless faster burning powders are suggested........I use 4.2 of Red Dot with 200gr RNFP, that's about .3 less than for 45acp. The inventor of the case suggests using 45 Auto Rim as a starting point. There is thread on the SASS wire now, you can PM folks for their favorite recipe. Good Luck

From AJ; "I won't share load data, but note any autorim target data is a good start."   

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Coffinmaker]

There is a bit of a thought here that many, in the past, have missed.  45 Auto Rim is intended to be run in wheel guns.  Wheel guns not necessarily proofed for 45 ACP levels.  45 Auto Rim "target" would be run at somewhat lower pressure (perhaps) than ACP which is loaded to move a slide against a heavy return spring.

Regardless.  Many similar cartridges don't just crossover.  With some propellants, it only takes a tiny difference in capacity or charge weight to make a LARGE Pressure difference.  Sometimes that difference results in laughs and chuckles as the revolver "Coffs" out a bullet halfway to the target and sometimes scatters cylinder parts all over the range.  Or yard if ya got a right big yard.

My initial thoughts were however, generated because I don't care for Trailboss.  Personal thing.  Nevermind.

[hp246]

.

My initial thoughts were however, generated because I don't care for Trailboss.

I get it.  Trailboss tends to make a mess of everything.  I usually work with whatever I can get a decent deal on at the time.  Pluses and minuses with all of the powders out there.

[rbertalotto]

Been shooting TB in the 45CS for well over 20,000 rounds with 160g big lube of simple 160g round nose. Never an issue. Clean shooting. Only clean my open top Colt 1960s twice a year. Great combination!

[Chance]

Can I ask what .45 Cowboy Special is?

Chance

[wildman1]

Go to Starline brass and look it up. There should be a description on that site.
wM1

[rbertalotto]

[Lumpy Grits]

WST and cold weather don't mix well with the .45 CS.
Go to mag primers-trust me on this.
LG

[Jefro]

Can I ask what .45 Cowboy Special is?

Chance

Howdy Chance, .45CS is a .45Colt brass the same size as .45acp, designed for reduced loads and less recoil than a standard .45Colt. Work great in the pistols, and at one time there were modified carriers being made for the Uberti Win 73......and IINM I think Widder and AJ had a couple of Marlins modified to handle the short round.

[Chance]

So it's a squib load for gamers? 

Chance

[Coffinmaker]

Chance,

To Quote the Duke "Not Hardly."

[Jefro]

Chance,

To Quote the Duke "Not Hardly."

Yep "Not Hardly", I've never shot a squib or anything like it, what do they taste like . Put 4.2 - 4.3 of Red Dot in there, or 19gr of 3f and then tell me all about it What the 45CS can do is save me about 17gr of 3f. For some it allows them to use the same guns for SASS and CFDA......in fact that;s what Heather shoots. And yes they can be down loaded close to feel of 158gr .38, that's enough to keep some shooters in the game. FWIW gamer ain't a dirty word .....Good Luck

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Professor Marvel]

So it's a squib load for gamers? 

Chance

Actually, since the .45 Colt was originally a BP cartridge, loading that monstrous cavern with smokeless can become "challenging" ...

Thus the designer came up with shortening the case to the length of the .45 Auto Rim, but with all the normal rim and case dimensions of the
.45 Colt. When loaded with Unique or any other modern powder the .45 Cowboy is virtually identical to, if not better than either the .45 Auto Rim or the .45 ACP;  neither of which are considered gamer loads around my stomping grounds. Lol ...

HTH
Prof Marvel

[Chance]

No offence meant, guys. The comment was made tongue in cheek, hence the smiley. 

Chance

[Lumpy Grits]

No offence meant, guys. The comment was made tongue in cheek, hence the smiley. 

Chance

NP here-I thought it was funny
Got a buddy that shoots those '45 shorts'. I tell'en a lb of powder will last him forever.
LG

[FriscoCounty]

The voluminous case capacity of the .45 Colt was always a problem.   The original UMC used in the trials was 40gr of BP behinda  255gr bullet.  I don't know if that loading was ever issued to troops.  Certainly by 1874 the loading had been reduced to 30gr BP behind a 250gr bullet. 

In early 1875 the .45 Government Revolver cartridge was introduced.  It was .162" shorter than the .45 Colt, used 28gr of BP behind a 203gr RNFP bullet, and could be used in both the M1873 Colt and the S&W Schofield.  Around 1882 the Franklin Arsenal switched from Berdan primed to boxer primed.  Finally, the M1887 ball cartridge was issued and was the sole Government revolver cartridge until it was replaced by the .38 Long Colt in 1892.

I have seen conflicting reports as to the production of the .45 Colt cartridge for use by the US Government during the 1875-1887 time frame.

Ref:
Hackley, Woodin and Scranton, "History of Modern U. S. Military Small Arms Ammunition" Volume 1
McChristian, "THe U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880 Uniforms, Weapons, and Equipment"
http://www.oldammo.com/november14.htm

[Professor Marvel]

No offence meant, guys. The comment was made tongue in cheek, hence the smiley. 

Chance

Oops... with a touch of the flu I missed that 😅

No offense taken .. just prof marvel running off at the mouth , which is the trademark of any good snake
Oil salesman ...  lol

Yhs
Prof Marvel