44-40 brass problem/question

major · February 25, 2018, 12:03:37 PM

I have been loading 44-40 for CAS for several years now and mostly I use Starline brass. I picked up a few Winchester & some CBC brass sometime in my travels and have had trouble getting them to chamber as easy as the Starline. I load a .428 RNFP molly coated bullet and I never have any trouble getting cartridges made with the Starline brass to go into my chamber checker. But with the Win and CBC after they are completed, I always have to run them threw a sizer die before they will chamber all the way in my chamber checker and revolver. Is there a reason this is happening? Is the thickness of the Win and CBC brass thicker than the Starline? Am I sizing the bullet down to small with the Win and CBC brass when I run them threw the sizer again? Just wondering.

Roscoe · February 25, 2018, 12:32:22 PM

Do you trim your brass? It grows quite a bit during sizing, so I lube and size before measuring and trimming. My Starline is not reliably chambering at 1.295 unless bullets are .428, so I have gone to 1.290 with success using .430 bullets and a 44 Special expander.

Abilene · February 25, 2018, 12:45:26 PM

That is odd as I believe Winchester is the thinnest mouth (don't know CBC). That is why I used it exclusively for 44-40 .429 in my Ubertis. Can't use R-P or PMC. With my Lee turret press and Lee dies (including the collet FCD crimer), sometimes the bullet doesn't seat straight and the bulge on one side is noticable and those are hard to chamber. So a couple years ago I started using readily available (I don't cast) .427 bullets with a happier outcome and they shoot just fine.

Slamfire · February 26, 2018, 08:18:13 AM

Back in the day,,,just before the "shortage era " I bought 1000pcs. of Starline in 44/40,,cast 200gr. bullets in .427 ( 92 Rossi ,,2- 1875 outlaws ) never a hitch loading always have shot to POA at 100yds. never tried the other brands of brass,,,if it ain't broke don't fix it kind of deal for me. But we all know each weapon is different and when we find the right combination ,,,life is good. Sounds like you are getting there .

smoke'm if y'a got'm,,,,Hootmix.

major · February 26, 2018, 10:07:40 AM

Quote from: Roscoe on February 25, 2018, 12:32:22 PM
Do you trim your brass? It grows quite a bit during sizing, so I lube and size before measuring and trimming. My Starline is not reliably chambering at 1.295 unless bullets are .428, so I have gone to 1.290 with success using .430 bullets and a 44 Special expander.

I do not trim my 44-40 brass. I measured several that I had fired multipull times and never seamed to grow any. I don't think that length is the problem. I am using very light cowboy loads.

Trailrider · February 26, 2018, 11:11:35 AM

I can't say for sure, but Winchester brass, being thinner may expand more than Starline or the other brand, even though your loads are light. Your sizing die may not be setting the shoulder back enough, though if it does when you size after seating the bullet it seems a bit strange. I use nothing but Winchester .44-40 brass with .430" bullets in my Ruger Old Model Vaqueros without problems. I use regular RCBS dies (not the Cowboy dies), but bought a .44 Magnum expander plug for use with the larger bullets. Check and see if your bullets are being seated off-center so the case bulges on one side.

Also, make up a dummy round (no primer, no powder). Either use a candle to smoke the case all around or a Magic Marker. Chamber the round as far as it will go, and see where the smoke or marker are rubbed off. That should give a clue as to where the problem lies.

Roscoe · February 26, 2018, 12:47:32 PM

Quote from: major on February 26, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
I do not trim my 44-40 brass. I measured several that I had fired multipull times and never seamed to grow any. I don't think that length is the problem. I am using very light cowboy loads.

Your crimp would be set for sized Starline. If, after sizing, other brands are a bit longer, that thin case could buckle when the crimp locks up, and the press and case aren't quite homed yet. Compare case lengths after sizing.

cheatin charlie · February 26, 2018, 01:58:40 PM

"Your crimp would be set for sized Starline. If, after sizing, other brands are a bit longer, that thin case could buckle when the crimp locks up, and the press and case isn't quite homed yet. Compare case lengths after sizing."

This is exactly what happened to me. Now I give away all off brand brass and only use Starline.\ or use a collet crimp die.

major · February 26, 2018, 02:09:35 PM

Quote from: cheatin charlie on February 26, 2018, 01:58:40 PM
This is exactly what happened to me. Now I give away all off brand brass and only use Starline.\ or use a collet crimp die.

I am slowly eliminating all but Starline. I don't think I have more than 50 of the non Starline left. After I finish loading a box of 50 I check the head stamps on them and any that are not Starline I put threw my sizer die on my single stage press.

wildman1 · February 26, 2018, 07:25:00 PM

Lee FCD will take care of a bulged crimp in any over length brass.
wM1

Cliff Fendley · February 27, 2018, 06:27:28 AM

Quote from: wildman1 on February 26, 2018, 07:25:00 PM
Lee FCD will take care of a bulged crimp in any over length brass.
wM1

THIS^

major · February 27, 2018, 07:50:16 AM

Quote from: wildman1 on February 26, 2018, 07:25:00 PM
Lee FCD will take care of a bulged crimp in any over length brass.
wM1

I already use the Lee FCD on every cartridge. But when I get one made with other than Starline I need to run it threw a sizing die also.

Coffinmaker · February 27, 2018, 01:04:08 PM

Nah. Way overthinking the problem. Way too much effort. When you run into pieces of brass that are other than Starline, toss em inna empty coffee container. When the container gets full, send those cases to ME. I'll form em out to run as 45 Colt. Eliminates the Blow By.

major · February 27, 2018, 01:35:29 PM

Coffinmaker
I could do that or I could put them in my recycle brass box and take them to the junk yard and get $$ for them. But that was a nice try! LOL. I think you are correct we are over thinking this problem.

Roscoe · February 27, 2018, 06:17:20 PM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on February 27, 2018, 06:27:28 AM
THIS^

I don't believe the FCD has a post sizing ring for any necked cartridge. If it did, it would have to be the size of the case body, not the crimped neck. I have found just a grunt in a regular sizer can make a round usable.

Isom · February 28, 2018, 05:41:34 PM

Major,
had a similar problem with 32-20 a few years ago. I'd acquired about 5 different headstamps over about 35-40 yrs. Starting shooting CAS, grabbed 2-3 handfuls and loaded them. Took rifle to range ,(orig. '73) all kinds of jams. No problem in pistols. Back home, started checking ,,,,,, cartridge OAL ,,,, all, ok, checked "case" length. Come to find out, each maker has it's own case length. I spent the weekend trimming them all to the shortest manufacture's case length. Which happened to be Starline. I was loading Starline with BP, had some cases left over so they got into the "others" mixture. All that to say , check the case length of the "others".
Good luck, hope this helps,
Isom

greyhawk · February 28, 2018, 06:53:48 PM

Quote from: major on February 26, 2018, 02:09:35 PM
I am slowly eliminating all but Starline. I don't think I have more than 50 of the non Starline left. After I finish loading a box of 50 I check the head stamps on them and any that are not Starline I put threw my sizer die on my single stage press.

Wisht I lived nearby! I have a friend who is kinda pedantic on starline brass - I visit often - we go get coffee - tell ~~lies~~ tall tales - hang out in his workshop - he gives me lil plastic bags of 44/40 shells he dont want anymore - winchester - remmy - maybe others - all squeaky cleaned and shiny - resized and ready to load. They go through my 66 and my 92 without any problems - I have never length trimmed a 44/40 case in my life! Just use me fingers on the press handle when I load instead of me fist - ya can feel that roll crimp when its right - yeah sometimes I sort by brand . dont bust many cases - maybe one every couple hundred - fr gosh sakes they 50cents - and the one ya broke was proly half wore out anyways - tenth of a cent per loaded round to maybe a quarter cent !

Roscoe · March 02, 2018, 09:52:32 AM

Quote from: greyhawk on February 28, 2018, 06:53:48 PM
Wisht I lived nearby! I have a friend who is kinda pedantic on starline brass - I visit often - we go get coffee - tell ~~lies~~ tall tales - hang out in his workshop - he gives me lil plastic bags of 44/40 shells he dont want anymore - winchester - remmy - maybe others - all squeaky cleaned and shiny - resized and ready to load. They go through my 66 and my 92 without any problems - I have never length trimmed a 44/40 case in my life! Just use me fingers on the press handle when I load instead of me fist - ya can feel that roll crimp when its right - yeah sometimes I sort by brand . dont bust many cases - maybe one every couple hundred - fr gosh sakes they 50cents - and the one ya broke was proly half wore out anyways - tenth of a cent per loaded round to maybe a quarter cent !

On the trim question, the problem comes when using bullets larger than minimum 44-40, and the chamber size is unforgiving. Otherwise some extra length on that very thin case mouth will fit in the chamber with bullet.

greyhawk · March 02, 2018, 11:12:08 PM

Quote from: Roscoe on March 02, 2018, 09:52:32 AM
On the trim question, the problem comes when using bullets larger than minimum 44-40, and the chamber size is unforgiving. Otherwise some extra length on that very thin case mouth will fit in the chamber with bullet.

That makes sense - havent had to do it yet - unless the boolits are untidy cast I shoot em as cast - RCBS mold gives me 430 - 431 - am loading with a combination of bits n pieces from 44 magnum and 44/40 dies which eliminates a lot of extra working of the brass - I pretty much dont size anything unless it wont fit where it sposed to and then only just enough that it will fit - If I was shootin CAS regular that would likely change - If I have a rapid fire match coming - all my loaded ammo goes through the gun on my back lawn before we leave home - my Uberti must have a generous chamber tho it doesnt look to? I do have a case trimmer - maybe one day I get bored and use it .

Roscoe · March 03, 2018, 11:46:19 AM

Quote from: greyhawk on March 02, 2018, 11:12:08 PM
That makes sense - havent had to do it yet - unless the boolits are untidy cast I shoot em as cast - RCBS mold gives me 430 - 431 - am loading with a combination of bits n pieces from 44 magnum and 44/40 dies which eliminates a lot of extra working of the brass - I pretty much dont size anything unless it wont fit where it sposed to and then only just enough that it will fit - If I was shootin CAS regular that would likely change - If I have a rapid fire match coming - all my loaded ammo goes through the gun on my back lawn before we leave home - my Uberti must have a generous chamber tho it doesnt look to? I do have a case trimmer - maybe one day I get bored and use it .

My 44-40 is a Uberti 1875 Remington Outlaw repro. A .430 bullet passes easily through the cylinder throats. I tried everything with .430 bullets and could not get every round in a batch to fully chamber until I started trimming and setting the crimp for shorter brass. I suppose I could uniform the purchased bullets through my sizer, but they sure don't look abused in shipping. I think it has more to do with the bullet ogive, which would not be a problem in a truncated cone style. The smaller diameter .428 bullets I set aside are the same round nose shape, but don't present as fat a nose to the chamber and consistently load easily. I do have a cartridge gauge, in which the rounds consistently pass but not always in the gun's cylinder.