44-40 H110 or Lil Gun

[Bryan Austin]

I just saw today that Buffalo Bore manufactures a "Heavy" 44-40 load that replicates original BP velocities @ 1,350fps from a 20" barrel, 980fps from a 7 1/2 revolver... but chamber pressures remain below SAAMI 13,000 cup.

[Cliff Fendley]

And after all that I just have to scratch my head and think..why?? 44 magnum and other larger chamberings do exist today so why?

Am I the only one that needs such a small excuse to buy another gun?

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

And after all that I just have to scratch my head and think..why?? 44 magnum and other larger chamberings do exist today so why?

Am I the only one that needs such a small excuse to buy another gun?

   Why? Why what? Nothing wrong with owning a firearm in a particular caliber and loading it to its potential. Just because I own a 44-40 doesn't mean I should be predisposed to load it light.

  CHT

[greyhawk]

Somebody quoted Ackley ?
Many moons ago our local Aussie reloading manual listed top loads for 44/40 ... 200grain jacketed @ 2000fps = 29 grains of Dupont 4227
This was in Antique winchester model 92 cuz it was before we ever saw a Rossi or anything modern in steel
Always thought that was three or four grains too much - but nobody blew a 92 up with those loads an if ya smacked a pig in the bushes with it there was seldom any argument from tother end.
Some argue that the 44mag brass is so much stronger (than 44/40) - and it is too but if ya relyin on thicker brass to contain 40000psi in a weak or sloppy action - I think ya barkin up the wrong tree - the advantage might be there but its gonna be marginal.
Rossis and 94's came along in 44/40 and the rules changed some - new guns - modern steel - but the interest in real hotrod loads for the old 44/40 waned ..... other tools were available to do the bigger job better or easier - when I shot my first hot loads in a 92 - nodody I knew had even seen a 45/70 - now they are common - things have changed some !   

[Bryan Austin]

44 magnum and other larger chamberings do exist today so why?

These are loaded to original velocities of 1,300fps plus at below 13,000cup so what is the problem? Are you saying the original 44wcf loads of 1873 are equivalent to 44 magnum loads?   NICE! 

[Cliff Fendley]

These are loaded to original velocities of 1,300fps plus at below 13,000cup so what is the problem? Are you saying the original 44wcf loads of 1873 are equivalent to 44 magnum loads?   NICE! 

It's funny how some people completely read something into someones posts that was never said.

However YOU are the one listed that you wouldn't shoot over 26000cip and called them +P+ loads for strong actions with a velocity over 1600. Now you say they are all under 1300 and 13000cup? THAT is what I meant when I was referring to using a 44 mag if you are trying for that kind of performance because regardless if you deny making 44 mag performance with it or not, that is what you are doing.

It's your gun and your eyes, do as you wish, I was just stating my opinion as to it making absolutely no sense to me when I can buy a gun chambered in a cartridge made for it.

Carry on.

[greyhawk]

I know ya'll know about PO Ackley right?

Now this dude scares the daylights outta me!!!!



Please, I beg you....don't try this...and I hear he used a Winchester 92 for these loads!!!


Ackley claims....followed by Quckload's estimated pressures using CIP standards. (informative only) Use this data if you have a Will made out!!!!!

Bullet used is unknown but estimated pressures are from a Winchester 200gr JSP bullet QL data

/25gr/2400/1870fps/.....................41,557psi
/27.5gr/2400/2100fps/..................55,349psi

/27gr/4227/1859fps/.....................IMR/28,425psi
/29gr/4227/1990fps/.....................IMR/35,997psi

I would like to test the bottom two in my MGM test barrel platform. BUT the top two could be disastrous and I am not ready for that yet.

Bryan
Your several posts followed one by CHT showing us his longrange shooting done with a model 66 ....... no connection intended I am sure but lets reinforce the message anyways ....if ya gonna squeeze a little extra out of a 44/40 (plenty can be squeezed out!) then for sure and certain a brass frame gun is not the place to start that experiment - get a 92 for that job - preferably a modern made one (rossi or browning...etc) before a newby gets even close to those low end Ackley loads will bend the frame of a brasser - bolt will go all sticky in the bent frame - it all goes to hell - seen a guy (not me) do that when he picked up by accident some warmish reloads he had made for his other 44 ..........................

[Bryan Austin]

Bryan
Your several posts followed one by CHT showing us his longrange shooting done with a model 66 ....... no connection intended I am sure but lets reinforce the message anyways ....if ya gonna squeeze a little extra out of a 44/40 (plenty can be squeezed out!) then for sure and certain a brass frame gun is not the place to start that experiment - get a 92 for that job - preferably a modern made one (rossi or browning...etc) before a newby gets even close to those low end Ackley loads will bend the frame of a brasser - bolt will go all sticky in the bent frame - it all goes to hell - seen a guy (not me) do that when he picked up by accident some warmish reloads he had made for his other 44 ..........................

Yes, lets reinforce the message......

Review Reply #14

Group I Rifles (weak actions) (Lyman lists ten rifles) .....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40
16gr/2400/1,183fps/11,900/15,000 (fps=Current Factory Velocities) Normal Loads

Group II Rifles (strong actions) (Lyman lists nine rifles) .....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40
18gr/2400/1,380fps/14,500/19,000 (fps=Original Historical Velocities) +P Loads due to higher than max pressures
20gr/2400/1,638fps/19,000/25,753 (fps=1903 (1910) Factory "High Velocity" Replication) +P+ Loads due to excessive high pressure

Lyman lists 19 different rifles total....here are the popular rifles
Weak Actions - [Henry, 66'], 73's [and replicas]...I added the 44 rimfire & replica rifles that shoot the 44-40 cartridge!!!
Strong Actions - Win 92' & 94'...Marlin 1894.

READ THE MANUAL

[Bryan Austin]

It's funny how some people completely read something into someones posts that was never said.

However YOU are the one listed that you wouldn't shoot over 26000cip and called them +P+ loads for strong actions with a velocity over 1600. Now you say they are all under 1300 and 13000cup? THAT is what I meant when I was referring to using a 44 mag if you are trying for that kind of performance because regardless if you deny making 44 mag performance with it or not, that is what you are doing.

It's your gun and your eyes, do as you wish, I was just stating my opinion as to it making absolutely no sense to me when I can buy a gun chambered in a cartridge made for it.

Carry on.

Not even sure where to start here. I thought you were replying to my reply #20 although you did not quote. So yes, there is the confusion.

So I quote you, "it is funny how someone can".......looks like we are both confused.

Yes, I limit myself to 26,000psi CIP which is close to 21,000psi SAAMI in this particular case...no time to explain. Then I posted about Buffalo Bore's new ammo that are all under SAAMI 11,000psi max BUT replicate original black powder velocities of 1,350fps.

The OP's title is 44-40, not 44 magnum...so no, I was not referring to 44 magnum loads but you were. If you will go back and read my post you will see that the Loads I listed as +P+ are in the Lyman Manual with the exception of the Akley photos. I don't need a 44 magnum, I have a 44-40 that does exactly what I want it to do.  It's okay if you still need to "scratch your head", some folks just don't "get it".....it is right there in the Manual 

[Bryan Austin]

Was messing around with quickload, and it looks like some pretty stiff loads for the 44-40 can be put together with either of the above listed powders and give some decent load densities while keeping pressures well within reason.  Anyone used either of these with a 200gr lead?

Jrice, I just got home from the range and here are my results using case capacity loads of Reloder 7. I have not tried H110 or Lil Gun yet!!!


Today's shoot was very promising. I was very pleased with the results. Today I tested Winchester, Magteck and Buffalo Bore factory ammunition as well as a few more handloads. The below photograph is targets 177 thru 182 ALL 100 YARDS. Temp 45deg, cloudy and humid, no wind.

Rifle, 24" Marlin 1894CB with a scope, bench rest
ALL 5 SHOT GROUPS


#177 - Magtech Box 44-40A, Avg. 975fps with 3 1/2" Group, ES 77
#178 - Winchester Super-X, Avg. 1,055fps with 4 1/8" Group, ES 41
#179 - Winchester 200gr JSP/27.5gr RL-7, Avg. 1,436fps, ES 48, 1/34' to 3 3/4" Group....est pressure 16,754psi CIP
#180 - Laser Cast 200gr Hard Cast/28gr RL-7, Avg. 1,500fps, ES 45, 2" Group....est pressure 19,000psi CIP....approx 14,000psi SAAMI
#181 - Buffalo Bore 200gr Hard cast/10.gr of something, Avg. 1,336fps, ES 29, 1 1/4" to 2 1/4" Group....pressure claims to be below 11,000psi SAAMI
#182 - Sierra 210gr JSHP/26gr RL-7, Avg. 1,382fps, ES 53, 1 3/4" Group.....est pressure 18,000psi CIP...approx 13,000PSI SAAMI

I would keep the +P (anything above 15,954psi CIP, 11,000psi SAAMI) loads for Winchester 92' or Marlin 1894 type rifles. Buffalo Bore's 44-40-200HC are listed as being below 11,000psi/13,000cup SAAMI

[Cliff Fendley]

Not even sure where to start here. I thought you were replying to my reply #20 although you did not quote. So yes, there is the confusion.

So I quote you, "it is funny how someone can".......looks like we are both confused.

Yes, I limit myself to 26,000psi CIP which is close to 21,000psi SAAMI in this particular case...no time to explain. Then I posted about Buffalo Bore's new ammo that are all under SAAMI 11,000psi max BUT replicate original black powder velocities of 1,350fps.

The OP's title is 44-40, not 44 magnum...so no, I was not referring to 44 magnum loads but you were. If you will go back and read my post you will see that the Loads I listed as +P+ are in the Lyman Manual with the exception of the Akley photos. I don't need a 44 magnum, I have a 44-40 that does exactly what I want it to do.  It's okay if you still need to "scratch your head", some folks just don't "get it".....it is right there in the Manual 

I get there are much safer ways of getting the same performance which was the intent of my comment and nothing more. THATS what YOU didn't get and seemed to take offence too. Carry on and be safe..... or not.

[Bryan Austin]

Ya know Cliff, its like this....lots of people try to be funny, or jokingly condescending, or even sarcastically helpful. I guess I lost my appetite for it years ago.....it can be difficult seeing the humor in some people's posts. No harm done, just expect it from time to time.

[Bryan Austin]

Sharpe's 1937 manual shows several rifle loads recommended by Hercules and Du Pont that produce pressures of 14,000, 16,000, 20,000 and [27.5gr 2400] @ 33,000......I assume c.u.p.
[approx. 28,000psi or much much more]

Revolver pressures to 15,000.....I assume c.u.p. [approx. 12,690psi] This even more so falls in line with my testings with black powder original unheadstamped cases.

Powders used for rifle were 2400, Unique, Sharpshooter, Lightning, 1204, SR80 and 4227. The 4227[I assume IMR 4227] shows 29gr @ 1,890fps but no pressures.
Powders used for revolver were #5, #6, Bullseye, Unique, SR80, SS FFG, and RSQ