Dash caliber problems

[Isom]

Lately I've been reading a lot about Winchester dash caliber problems, 44-40, 38-40 and 32-20. The 44-40 seems to be the biggie. It's either grind die bottoms, use a particular brand die, pistol and different for the rifle, this or that. I started with 44-40 in '96 , shot it for about 10 yrs. then went to the dark side with 38-40's about 10 yrs. ago. Had a few problems along the way with 44-40. Tried this or that, but was given the advise to get a finishing chambering reamer and use it. I've got Rugers, Colts and Ubertis in all 3 calibers. I go green and blue. RCBS regular dies for all, Hornaday resizing die for the 38-40. 44-40 and 38-40 loaded in a Dillon 650. 32-20 on an RCBS Ammomaster, don't shoot it that much. But since I bought finishing reamers, every pistol I've bought gets reamed and I've had minimum to no problems. I don't have separate pistol/rifle ammo. They're not as hard to reload as most people are led to believe , and a lot of bad press is out there. I have had to use the reamer on every 38-40 Uberti '73 that I've gotten, 3ea., Uberti seems to short chamber their 38-40 '73 rifles. I'm just trying to understand the bad press of things that I haven't experienced. Just trying to understand.
Isom Dart

[Kent Shootwell]

The way I see it a fellow shouldn't need to buy a tool kit and become mechanic to  own a car. Myself I like to tinker and have plenty of tools but many shooters tool box is a check book meaning they want a product that works.

[Roscoe]

In the 44-40 situation, it seems the dies are out of sync with current gun production. The dies are .428, while some of the guns are better served by .430. In practical terms, the tip to use the 44 Spl/Mag/Russian expander insert at .430 is the essential trick. The cases no longer collapse during seating a fat bullet.

[Dave T]

I have had to use the reamer on every 38-40 Uberti '73 that I've gotten, 3ea., Uberti seems to short chamber their 38-40 '73 rifles.

Wouldn't your own statement be considered "bad press" in regard to the 38 dash 40? And, doesn't it explain why many folks have problems loading for those '73s?

Dave

[August]

I chased a lot of issues with the 38 W.C.F. when I first started using it.  They were al resolved by getting a reamer from Manson's Reamers, disassembling the rifle, chucking the reamer in one end of a lathe and the barrel in the other and making the chamber compatible with modern bullets and dies.

Since Winchester introduced these cartridges about 100 years before manufacturers instituted SAAMI standards for more modern cartridges, it should not be surprising that wide variation exists.  There are no industry standards for these cartridges.

What you are experiencing is the nature of the beast.  Great cartridges, once you get 'em working, however.

FWIW, the only sizing die I have that produces cases that work in *ALL* my guns is a Redding.  However, it affects such a drastic reduction in the dimensions of the brass, that I size first in an Hornady sizer, then go to the Redding.  That way, I avoid a lot of the bubbles and creases that otherwise would appear.

I suspect discussing antique Winchester Central Fire rounds as a group is unproductive.  The process that will work for the 44 W.C.F. probably won't work for the 38 W.C.F., and so on....

It seems when we play the antique firearm game, we don't so much purchase guns as adopt them.  Finding the process for each, individual caliber is part of the "fun".  (no, I don't think it's fun either).

My personal Waterloo was trying to make a 38-55 cartridge run in both a lever gun and a High Wall.  As it turned out, both guns said 38-55 on their barrels, but that labeling was the only thing about the two guns, their bores, or their chambers that was similar.

The most important advice I've ever gotten about Cowboy shooting was, "once you get something working, leave it the heck alone."

[Isom]

Kent: true enough , but if you get your first car ,you're going to get a toolbox, a small one but a toolbox; flashlight, screw drivers, wrenches, etc. Same as with a gun. How many people do you know that  shoot a gun right out of the box? Most will either stone and smooth it up themselves or have someone do it for them.  The do it yourselfers have a ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tool box 
Dave: I wouldn't exactly call it bad press,, but,, it's a fact. That's what happened to "me", about '06-'07. Things may have changed by now. I hope so. But 38-40 is my main match cal. Love it like a hog loves slop. 
August: You know what I mean with the rifles , but I did mine by hand. It was only about 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch I had to go . They were all '73's.  I think the problem a lot of people have with the dash calibers, is when they go to load them , they tend to l kind of ham hand them like the straight wall cartgs. Ya' just have to ease up a bit. Between the two, I may have about a big coffee mug with screw-ups in them since about '96. That's the view from my side of the fence.
Isom Dart

[Slamfire]

 Of all the articles & story's I'v read of the old west..the one thing I don't remember reading about is (was ) cowboy's sitting around the camp fire at night telling each other what they were having to do their gun's or ammo to get it to work "RIGHT" or maybe I just missed that " pictorial" story....Just my view of things. Maybe guns should come w/ inspected by " #13" kind'a like our shirt's ..use to.(ha-ha-ha)

QUOTE: August.".once you get something working,leave it the heck alone"... MFG"s scored out side the 10 ring on that one.



smok'm if y'a got'm,,,,Hootmix.

[Slamfire]

 Been going back and re-reading some older post's,,,, I agree with " August ",," we don't so much purchase guns as adopt them ".  AS a retired " Bootmaker ",, 2 customers ,, both wear a size 10 ,,but can't wear the others boot's ,, WHY ?? The length= the same,, but the short heel- instep - ball - & long heel  all these measurements are "different " ,, " we don't so much purchase the boots as ,adopt them " ( I mean off the wall boots , not custom ) I personally " LOVE 44/40's "  I shoot white powder,,200 gn. rnfp both in 1875's & 92 Rossi and like many others I "ADOPTED " ( Thanks August I like that word ) a 40/60 CHAPARRAL and it is now one of my favorite rifles ( well ,,now ! ) . The journey was ,, is ,,hair pull'n at times ,,but I don't have much to do between 12 & 2:00 AM anyway.

  smoke'm if y'a got'm ,, Hootmix.

[Chance]

I've loaded .40-40 for 30 years using a standard Lee 3-die set. No fancy gizmo's or special kit. Yep, I've had a few crumpled cases (can't remember when the last one was) but take it slowly and they are no different to any other calibre IMHO. I've had Armi San Marco revolvers and several Uberti's (Henry & 1873). I currently run a Uberti Henry and a Chiappa 1892 in this calibre and a Uberti 1866 in .38-40 with a .32-20 Uberti 1873 short rifle. I love the "dash" calibres.

Chance

[Bibbyman]

I've loaded .40-40 for 30 years using a standard Lee 3-die set. No fancy gizmo's or special kit. Yep, I've had a few crumpled cases (can't remember when the last one was) but take it slowly and they are no different to any other calibre IMHO. I've had Armi San Marco revolvers and several Uberti's (Henry & 1873). I currently run a Uberti Henry and a Chiappa 1892 in this calibre and a Uberti 1866 in .38-40 with a .32-20 Uberti 1873 short rifle. I love the "dash" calibres.

Chance

Are you loading on a single stage press?   

I feel a lot of problems are introduced when trying to load on a Dillon 550b.   I finally have the dies set up and it runs 44WCF and 32WCF pretty well.  I'm using 427 diameter bullets on everything because two Smoke Wagons won't chamber anything fater.

[treebeard]

I reload 25-20 thru 44-40 and have not had a problem with original or reproduction firearms. This may because i  use turret press where I advance the dies manually.  I have thru my own fault crunbled a few cases but have not had the feeding issues so many seem to have—maybe I just got lucky.

[greyhawk]

I reload 25-20 thru 44-40 and have not had a problem with original or reproduction firearms. This may because i  use turret press where I advance the dies manually.  I have thru my own fault crunbled a few cases but have not had the feeding issues so many seem to have—maybe I just got lucky.

Two problems I see with the dash calibres
1) hamfisted operators of loading presses - these cases are very thin up front (twas done for good reason at the time - they run clean with blackpowder)
2) laziness,arrogance, pennypinching - call it what you like from the manufacturers who have ceased (in many instances) making 44/40 barrels for their guns and now fit them with 44magnum barrels chambered for the older cartridge - that is a half a$$ed cutting of corners that was always gonna cause trouble and confusion - seems like to compound this die manufacturers are still running to old specs so we have resizers (neck or full length) that work the hell out of our cases causing a whole nuther set of problems

Back in the day you walked out of the store with a tong tool, a can of blackpowder and some primers, you reloaded your own shells with a full charge of black and fired em in yr own gun from where they came originally and had zero problems - didnt need to resize cases - the boolits fitted - life was simple -
Looks to me the rip tear hurry up that is CAS competition has transferred itself to too many loading rooms 

[Chance]

Are you loading on a single stage press?   

Yes I am. I have two Lee presses that are over thirty years old and still working as they should. All of my bullet seating dies (Lee) have Lyman lock rings on them. Time is something which I have a lot of and I'm not in a hurry when reloading.

Chance

[Slamfire]

Ditto,, Chance ,, LEE ,dies & presses set up w/ lock rings ,,load 44/40 & 40/60 ,, cast bullets ,, between 12 & 2:oo AM ( ha-ha-ha ).

  smoke'm if ya got'm ,, Hootmix.

[Roscoe]

My .430 bullets, 200 gr RNFP, wouldn't chamber either, but since my cylinder throats would pass a .430 bullet, instead of using .428s I trimmed my cases .010, and everything suddenly worked. The bullet ogive was too fat, is what I took from it.