44-40 reloading issue

wildman1 · January 21, 2018, 08:10:06 PM

That's the collet that forms the crimp. When it is pushed up into the die the top squeezes together forming the crimp. When it is pushed up by the press the threads will interfere with the action of the die by coming in contact with the shellplate. It will at worst not hurt the die to remove two threads from the outside of the die. If you don't want to do it don't.
wM1

major · January 21, 2018, 08:18:08 PM

I just took a hard look at my Lee FCD and you are correct the threads go all the way to the bottom. Is it a problem when used on the 650 press also? I have never run into any problems with it working correctly.

Trailrider · January 21, 2018, 08:36:12 PM

For .429-.430" bullets you need to use a .44 Magnum expander plug, which should fit the RCBS "Cowboy" expansion die body, but also the regular RCBS die. That should minimize or eliminate the bulging. I use Winchester brass exclusively, as the walls are thinner.

Cliff Fendley · January 21, 2018, 09:38:58 PM

Quote from: major on January 21, 2018, 08:18:08 PM
I just took a hard look at my Lee FCD and you are correct the threads go all the way to the bottom. Is it a problem when used on the 650 press also? I have never run into any problems with it working correctly.

I don't know on the 650 you'll just have to check and see if the threads are rubbing the step in the shell plate.

Cliff Fendley · January 21, 2018, 09:42:12 PM

Quote from: PJ Hardtack on January 21, 2018, 05:00:27 PM
My 44-40 Lee FCD does not have threads to the bottom of the die. There is a short extension of the die body below the threaded portion.
Putting the die against the shell plate, it seems to socket in the shell plate recess just fine, yet when installed in the tool head, I don't get the full factory crimp I do with a single stage press.

The may have changed them, I haven't bought one in a while. In the past the ones for straight wall cases had the unthreaded extension but the stepped ones for rifle cartridges had the threads to the end. I don't know why you're not getting the full crimp, it works just like in a single stage on my presses.

Roscoe · January 22, 2018, 09:34:29 AM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on January 19, 2018, 10:23:04 PM
No it doesn't, that's what works without EVER a wrinkled case and smooth feeding in any gun. The Cowboy dies size so the soft bullets seat easy and the FCD collet action squeezes and crimps it all without wrinkling a case and assures smooth feeding. Best of both worlds for loading ammo for CAS.

The only time I don't use the FCD is in loads I am loading for longer range and slower fire accuracy with black powder. In those cases I use a redding roll crimp die and carefully put a roll crimp.

The Lee FCD is forgiving for different cases and running lots of rounds that need to feed smoothly in various guns.

I don't recall why, since I use an RCBS Cowboy die set, but I do have a Lee FCD for my 44-40 and note that it does not have the post sizing ring for which "FCD" is famous or infamous relative to use with lead bullets. It makes sense because 44-40 is not a straight wall case. But I then don't see why it would be essential for loading 44-40 in some way that any other die dedicated to only crimping would not serve.

There is still the question of whether the dies are trying to work for .428 or for .430 bullets.

PJ Hardtack · January 22, 2018, 12:26:59 PM

My wife shot her Unerti 44-40 Revolver yesterday for the first time after an IPSC practice. She put 10 rds into 5" group at 10m . Then she offered it to me.

I fired 5 rds Duelist-style into a 2" group, but they printed 6" high. Should make a great 100m plinker!

This was with my hand cast .427 200 gr RNFPs, sized down from .429. They chambered snugly and dragged slightly on the recoil shield due to a high spot I need to dress down.

russ1943 · January 22, 2018, 09:07:47 PM

I have been reloading 44-40 since 1969, the problem is the Uberti , the cylinder, isn't cut right. I had 1875 44-40, Navy Arms had the same problem had hard feeding and primes scraped against recoil shield, even with factory Remington loads, SP, which is .427, no feeding problems with Winchester Factory SP but primer scraped against the recoil shield, the gun was made in 1974-75, then replacement was EMF Outlaw with all catalog crap and blade site vs post, the cylinder is a little hard to feed, compared to Colt Peacemaker Centennial, USFA, EMF Hardford, GW (1957) Also had Navy Arms SAA 1873, BP frame (Uberti) had no problems with starlite brass, and .427, and .429 lead bullets.

I found the expansion die has to be set just right, to avoid the brass problem, I use an old Lyman American Turret Press and after every 40 rounds check to see how they fit into the cylinder of 1875, if feed & drop out easily, will ran through any gun. I can tell when the bullet doesn't sit right seating it you will the brass problems, and it will not crimp right. The expansion die has to be an 1/16 to 1/8 turn down, re-locked and everything is OK,

I am using RCBS dies from 1972 the only die that was replaced was the size die.

Cliff Fendley · January 23, 2018, 10:00:40 AM

Quote from: Roscoe on January 22, 2018, 09:34:29 AM
I don't recall why, since I use an RCBS Cowboy die set, but I do have a Lee FCD for my 44-40 and note that it does not have the post sizing ring for which "FCD" is famous or infamous relative to use with lead bullets. It makes sense because 44-40 is not a straight wall case. But I then don't see why it would be essential for loading 44-40 in some way that any other die dedicated to only crimping would not serve.

There is still the question of whether the dies are trying to work for .428 or for .430 bullets.

I think you're overthinking it, we're talking cowboy action type ammo here.

It works because it's a collet that squeezes the case rather than pushing down risking wrinkling one if it happens to be long. I personally don't care what size bullet it's trying to work for since I run these through guns with everything from a .427 bore to over a .430 bore. I use the Lee die with .427 hard cast bullets for my wifes guns that have a combination of .427 and .429 bores and with soft lead .429 .430 black powder bullets in my guns with bores ranging from .427 to over .430 in some original Winchester rifles. I just know it works for making a lot of ammo fast that is reliable in any gun.

As I said before if I am loading some ammo for a specific rifle say for longer range or a specific older rifle, something where I don't want to squeeze down a soft lead bullet I will generally use a Redding roll crimp die to just put a slight roll crimp.

Roscoe · January 23, 2018, 10:55:20 AM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on January 23, 2018, 10:00:40 AM
I think you're overthinking it, we're talking cowboy action type ammo here.

It works because it's a collet that squeezes the case rather than pushing down risking wrinkling one if it happens to be long. I personally don't care what size bullet it's trying to work for since I run these through guns with everything from a .427 bore to over a .430 bore. I use the Lee die with .427 hard cast bullets for my wifes guns that have a combination of .427 and .429 bores and with soft lead .429 .430 black powder bullets in my guns with bores ranging from .427 to over .430 in some original Winchester rifles. I just know it works for making a lot of ammo fast that is reliable in any gun.

As I said before if I am loading some ammo for a specific rifle say for longer range or a specific older rifle, something where I don't want to squeeze down a soft lead bullet I will generally use a Redding roll crimp die to just put a slight roll crimp.

I only get that "overthinking" comment on cowboy boards. I load to a gauge and with knowledge of my guns throat and bore diameters. I seek a finished round that looks like factory, no bulges. I use Starline brass. My reloading is meant to be as perfect as I can make it. My experience with 44-40 is with my Uberti Outlaw, on which the throat and bore sizes require .430 bullets to avoid leading. I have a box of Oregon Trails at .428 someone local is welcome to. My cartridge gauge is a Wilson and freely allows rounds with .430 bullets and from RCBS Cowboy dies to plunk. LRNFP bullets of mid level hardness, preferably 12, from MO or Bullets by Scarlett, intended for 44 Special, work perfectly in my gun, my dies, and my gauge. I use 6.0 gr 700-x and CCI LP primers. I load them on a Lee Cast Turret.

PJ Hardtack · January 23, 2018, 11:00:02 AM

Not much I can do about the expansion issue as the Dillon powder dispenser does that.

I don't mind doing a special run of 44-40 ammo for my wife's Uberti revolver, doing whatever it takes to get ammo that will chamber.

I did some more work on the burr of the firing pin hole, totally obliterating it with emery cloth on a small file. That took care of the drag issue.

Roscoe · January 23, 2018, 04:21:41 PM

This prompted me to load some 44-40, which I hadn't done in a long time. I made some notes this time, because the settings are critical and unforgiving to get .430 bullets and fired cases to come out and plunk perfectly in gauge or cylinder chambers.

I had a few problem rounds, and troubleshooting those led to some essential things to remember in my notes. The die set is RCBS Cowboy, brass is fired Starline, shell holder is RCBS 35, primer is WLP, bullet is 200 gr LRNFP .430, Brinell ~15, from Bullets by Scarlett.

The sizer turned out to be critical in that, if the shell holder is set empty to just kiss the die, it won't be nearly that close when trying to bump the case shoulder. It has to be set with a case and get it as close as possible with reasonable force on the press. Otherwise my case shoulders weren't getting sufficiently bumped to chamber fully.

The expander die was a problem and was bulging the base of the case, if getting any real belling. I set it to the minimum to get a bullet to stand without shaving, and things got more consistent.

Crimp had to be a modest roll, or there would be fit problems at the case mouth.

Bullet insertion needed to result after crimp to just a hint of crimp groove showing.

Case length could not exceed the 1.295 of my gauge, and there were a few longer than that. I ordered a shell holder for my case trimmer to fit 44-40. All my cases will be checked for length.

I didn't find that the Lee FCD contributed anything.

I don't want to do this again and made my notes, not the least of which was not to mess with the settings and what bullets they were set for. I am probably not the only one to kill 2-3 hours troubleshooting this round. It would be easier if I loaded this cartridge more often.

(edited to reference sizer bumping shoulder rather than expander)

PJ Hardtack · January 23, 2018, 05:48:03 PM

I never had an issue loading 44-40 before, but I was loading only for my Henry. '92 and '66. They simply eat anything. Now that my wife has this Uberti revolver, I need to be more precise.

I just spent the day at the casting bench creating a batch of Lyman 427666 200 gr RNFPs (along with Lyman 420/457193 and Lyman 350 gr 45-70 bullets) and these will be sized to .427 just for her revolver.

My new set of RCBS 44-40 'Cowboy' dies arrived to day. I think my 44-40 reloading issues are about to end .....

Yeso Bill · January 23, 2018, 07:07:11 PM

PJ:
When I'm using the Dillon powder die, I use the Dillon 44 Magnum expander "G" in the 44-40 cases with the .429 / .430" bullets. Mine measures .4265" (VS Dillon's 44-40 @ .4225") and can be purchased separately. https://www.dillonprecision.com/powder-funnels_8_120_25279.html
Billy

Coal Creek Griff · January 23, 2018, 07:24:35 PM

Roscoe:

Thanks for sharing your experiences and notes. That kind of thing is always a help and will be available for years through the search function when people have questions in the future.

CC Griff

Cliff Fendley · January 24, 2018, 04:49:36 PM

Quote from: PJ Hardtack on January 23, 2018, 11:00:02 AM
Not much I can do about the expansion issue as the Dillon powder dispenser does that.

I don't mind doing a special run of 44-40 ammo for my wife's Uberti revolver, doing whatever it takes to get ammo that will chamber.

I did some more work on the burr of the firing pin hole, totally obliterating it with emery cloth on a small file. That took care of the drag issue.

If you do have an expansion/belling issue call Dillon. They can get you a different expander. I can't remember for sure but I may be using a different expander (for a 44mag?) in my 44-40 black powder setup since I use .429 and .430 bullets.

I remember talking to them when setting that up and they sent me the specific parts they thought would work the best. They sent me a die and expander with a funnel to pour the powder through by hand when loading black powder since I didn't want to use the powder measure with black powder.

Dillon has great customer service and very knowledgeable.

PJ Hardtack · January 24, 2018, 05:55:15 PM

Thanks for the info. I've yet to have a problem with a Dillon product that they didn't resolve.

Roscoe · January 26, 2018, 07:29:19 PM

I have discovered that of the many RCBS cowboy die sets I have for various cartridges the 44-40 is the only one that is not the carbide version. I have observed some case scuffing with 44-40 but wonder what results or setup adjustments will follow in the next batch of ammo done with case lube. Duh!

Cliff Fendley · January 27, 2018, 08:51:10 AM

Quote from: Roscoe on January 26, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
I have discovered that of the many RCBS cowboy die sets I have for various cartridges the 44-40 is the only one that is not the carbide version. I have observed some case scuffing with 44-40 but wonder what results or setup adjustments will follow I the next batch of ammo done with case lube. Duh!

Been there myself. I had one of my sets start doing that when I tried not running any lube. Since they aren't carbide I guess even the brass will finally scratch them. Repolish the inside and run lube. I use the Hornady one shot

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · January 27, 2018, 09:42:26 AM

I doubt if anyone made a carbide sizer for the "dash" cartridges, as they are tapered cases, ever so slightly. Perhaps a custom die at great expense? I always run Premier Die Wax.

I have scratched dies! As they say in OZ - Bugga! My fix is a pencil sized dowel, slit about an inch on one end and tuck in a bit of fine steel wool and spin away with a hand drill. Perhaps a swatch of fine emory cloth would do it, but I tried to be as gentle as possible.