44-40 reloading issue

PJ Hardtack · January 15, 2018, 05:41:59 PM

My wife bought an 'as new' 7-1/2" Uberti SAA in 44-40 as it was quite attractive with some gold filled laser engraving, some sort of commemorative model.

I FL sized some new Star Line brass and they chambered just fine, but when loaded, they all had an off-centre bulge that I could not eliminate by adjusting the dies.

It finally dawned on me that the .429 bullets were simply too large, so I swadged some commercial .429s down to .427. They chambered, but were still a tad snug.

I then swadged some of my Lyman 427666 RNFPs cast from a softer alloy to .427 and that solved the problem. The commercial bullets were just too hard to really swadge down, even if I gave them a half turn and swadged again.

Looks like I'll be doing some more .44 bullet casting this year.

Roscoe · January 15, 2018, 07:14:19 PM

If you get the 44WCF Cowboy set of dies from RCBS, you'll do much better. I can load .430s with no problem, sharing 200gr Missouris with 44 Special. My gun is a Uberti 1875 Outlaw with factory .430 throats and .429 bore. I figured that out when .427 bullets leaded badly.

PJ Hardtack · January 16, 2018, 11:22:58 AM

In the event that I get leading with the .427s, I'll use them in my Henry. I started with .427s years ago as I read that was the way to go. It kept it's rounds in the 8'' black at 100m offhand. I can't tell the difference with .429s.

PJ Hardtack · January 17, 2018, 11:12:03 AM

Quote from: Roscoe on January 15, 2018, 07:14:19 PM
If you get the 44WCF Cowboy set of dies from RCBS, you'll do much better. I can load .430s with no problem, sharing 200gr Missouris with 44 Special. My gun is a Uberti 1875 Outlaw with factory .430 throats and .429 bore. I figured that out when .427 bullets leaded badly.

What brass are you using? I'm of the opinion that the problem is with the RCBS dies (not 'Cowboy') and the new Starline brass I just bought, which seems to be thicker walled than Winchester.

The RCBS sizing die will not allow FL sizing in my Dillon 550b that I can get in a single stage RCBS Jr. press. Same with the crimp die. So I'm having to size separately and use a Lee Factory Crimp die as a separate operation using the single stage press.

Looks like I'll have to invest in a set of "Cowboy" dies hoping that they will be compatible with the Dillon.

Roscoe · January 17, 2018, 09:11:41 PM

Quote from: PJ Hardtack on January 17, 2018, 11:12:03 AM
What brass are you using? I'm of the opinion that the problem is with the RCBS dies (not 'Cowboy') and the new Starline brass I just bought, which seems to be thicker walled than Winchester.

The RCBS sizing die will not allow FL sizing in my Dillon 550b that I can get in a single stage RCBS Jr. press. Same with the crimp die. So I'm having to size separately and use a Lee Factory Crimp die as a separate operation using the single stage press.

Looks like I'll have to invest in a set of "Cowboy" dies hoping that they will be compatible with the Dillon.

My brass is all Starline.

PJ Hardtack · January 18, 2018, 11:31:54 AM

I'll be buying a set of 44-40 RCBS 'Cowboy' dies plus an extra seat/crimp die that came up. My 44-40 rifles feed anything, it's my wife's 44-40 revolver that is finicky with tight chambers.

Hopefully that will solve the problem.

Cliff Fendley · January 18, 2018, 07:10:57 PM

Quote from: PJ Hardtack on January 18, 2018, 11:31:54 AM
I'll be buying a set of 44-40 RCBS 'Cowboy' dies plus an extra seat/crimp die that came up. My 44-40 rifles feed anything, it's my wife's 44-40 revolver that is finicky with tight chambers.

Hopefully that will solve the problem.

Buy the RCBS cowboy dies and a Lee FCD. The first outer threads of the Lee FCD will rub the shellholder on a Dillion so you'll need to turn, grind, or file off the first couple threads. Those threads are all the way through the tool head and are just in the way.

All Lee FCD don't have the threads all the way to the end but the 44-40 does unless they've recently changed it.

PJ Hardtack · January 19, 2018, 05:48:16 PM

The RCBS 'Cowboy' dies are on the way. I found a set of "old stock" at $80 + S&H, compared to the current price of $110. Also have an extra 'Cowboy' seat/sizer coming, so I'll the best of both worlds.

Already have the 44-40 Lee FCD and yes, it needs to be shortened in order to function in the Dillon. Got a pal with a lathe so that's an easy fix.

Don't know why I waited so long to get properly set up, but with both my wife and I shooting 44-40 rds now, I need all the efficiency I can get. Haven't tried any .427s in her revolver yet. Hopefully they will bump up and not rattle down the bore.

Roscoe · January 19, 2018, 07:05:41 PM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on January 18, 2018, 07:10:57 PM
Buy the RCBS cowboy dies and a Lee FCD. The first outer threads of the Lee FCD will rub the shellholder on a Dillion so you'll need to turn, grind, or file off the first couple threads. Those threads are all the way through the tool head and are just in the way.

All Lee FCD don't have the threads all the way to the end but the 44-40 does unless they've recently changed it.

The FCD will defeat the investment in the Cowboy dies, which size every operation .001 larger and presume use of lead bullets.

Cliff Fendley · January 19, 2018, 10:23:04 PM

Quote from: Roscoe on January 19, 2018, 07:05:41 PM
The FCD will defeat the investment in the Cowboy dies, which size every operation .001 larger and presume use of lead bullets.

No it doesn't, that's what works without EVER a wrinkled case and smooth feeding in any gun. The Cowboy dies size so the soft bullets seat easy and the FCD collet action squeezes and crimps it all without wrinkling a case and assures smooth feeding. Best of both worlds for loading ammo for CAS.

The only time I don't use the FCD is in loads I am loading for longer range and slower fire accuracy with black powder. In those cases I use a redding roll crimp die and carefully put a roll crimp.

The Lee FCD is forgiving for different cases and running lots of rounds that need to feed smoothly in various guns.

OD#3 · January 19, 2018, 11:20:42 PM

Cliff, can you expound on why the Redding roll crimp is more accurate? Not a challenge; I'm genuinely curious.

wildman1 · January 20, 2018, 06:58:37 AM

Quote from: PJ Hardtack on January 19, 2018, 05:48:16 PM
Already have the 44-40 Lee FCD and yes, it needs to be shortened in order to function in the Dillon.

Not shortened just remove some of the threads from the outside of the die so it can function properly.
wM1

major · January 20, 2018, 07:17:20 AM

I use the Lee FC die in my dillon 650 and did not modify it in any way. I just had to put the nut on the bottom side of the die to keep it set. Why do you need to take off the bottom 2 threads?

Cliff Fendley · January 20, 2018, 08:28:40 AM

Quote from: OD#3 on January 19, 2018, 11:20:42 PM
Cliff, can you expound on why the Redding roll crimp is more accurate? Not a challenge; I'm genuinely curious.

It doesn't squeeze the whole cartridge and bullet so if I am running .429 or .430 bullets in a .429 bore and using a sizing die in a manner to minimize case resizing the redding die only applies a roll crimp without essentially resizing my bullets or case. The Lee FCD squeezes the whole case.

Cliff Fendley · January 20, 2018, 08:33:57 AM

Quote from: major on January 20, 2018, 07:17:20 AM
I use the Lee FC die in my dillon 650 and did not modify it in any way. I just had to put the nut on the bottom side of the die to keep it set. Why do you need to take off the bottom 2 threads?

There is a step on the Dillon 550 shell plate that rubs the first couple threads if they go all the way to the end of a die. I ran my first one for a while before realizing what it was doing. The 38 and 45 Lee crimp dies don't have the threads all the way to the end but the 44-40 and 32-20 did.

PJ Hardtack · January 20, 2018, 01:11:31 PM

Looking forward to getting my "Cowboy" 44-40 dies so I can see what works with what diameter bullet.

With my current non-'Cowboy' dies, if I want to avoid case bulging (off-centre bullets) I have to use .427s if i want them to chamber in my wife's Uberti revolver. This is with new Star line brass. All my other brass is Winchester.

Interesting comments re: the length of Lee FCDs and the need to shorten them by a couple threads, depending on calibre. My RCBS non-'Cowboy' sizing die needs it as well.

Eventually I'll get it all worked out and life will be good.

Cliff Fendley · January 20, 2018, 07:14:13 PM

Someone else already corrected and I'll repeat, you do NOT!!!! need to shorten the Lee FCD. Just need to grind off the outer part of the first couple threads. If you shorten the die your going to ruin it.

wildman1 · January 21, 2018, 04:51:13 AM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on January 20, 2018, 07:14:13 PM
Someone else already corrected and I'll repeat, you do NOT!!!! need to shorten the Lee FCD. Just need to grind off the outer part of the first couple threads. If you shorten the die your going to ruin it.

YEP!
wM1

PJ Hardtack · January 21, 2018, 11:32:43 AM

Thanks for the tip! I'll put it into my press and check it out.

PJ Hardtack · January 21, 2018, 05:00:27 PM

My 44-40 Lee FCD does not have threads to the bottom of the die. There is a short extension of the die body below the threaded portion.
Putting the die against the shell plate, it seems to socket in the shell plate recess just fine, yet when installed in the tool head, I don't get the full factory crimp I do with a single stage press.

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on January 20, 2018, 08:33:57 AM
There is a step on the Dillon 550 shell plate that rubs the first couple threads if they go all the way to the end of a die. I ran my first one for a while before realizing what it was doing. The 38 and 45 Lee crimp dies don't have the threads all the way to the end but the 44-40 and 32-20 did.