Chiappa Sharps M1863/1868 50-70 carbine (now with pictures)

[Drydock]

Surprisingly, it is useful.  There's not a whole lot of friction in the slider,  but just enough it seems.  It does have a very strong spring, that holds it ridged both upright and folded.  I would not call it a high quality sight, but it is usable.  However, should I feel the need to shoot past 200, I'll put a tang sight on it.  

Just as an aside, one other cartridge I'm trying to work up now is the 11mm French Gras.  As easy as the .50 Gov't is, the French round is a Cast Iron Bitch to load, brutal to shoot, with it's whole design raison d'etre seeming to be "Eet mus be beegger zan ze Bosche!"

[Drydock]

Just got off the phone with Carrico Leather.  A Fair Weather Christian Prairie Belt is on the way, type B with tent canvas loops.  This should also work well with my Spencer.

[1961MJS]

Hi

This is a bit of a hijack, but it IS for this rifle but in .45-70.  I need to work up a black powder load for the Chiappa I used at the 2017 Muster.  No reason to shoot against Repeaters if I don't have to.  

From what I've been reading in Lyman's black powder loading book and Paul Matthew's book, you don't really work up an accuracy load for a 45-70 like you do a .38 Special.  For example for a Bullseye load in .38 Special I made 100 rounds of 3.1 grains of Bullseye, 100 of 3.2 grains of Bullseye, 100 of 3.3 grains, and 100 of 3.4 grains and if this global freezing abates, I'll see which work in which revolver.  I have 4 to try so far.  

So, from Paul's book, I get a grease cookie or a a fiber wad, load the cartridge with powder (of the black sort) and mainly make sure that there's no air space between the powder and the bullet so that I don't ring the barrel.  Not loose, not packed solid, but like the three bears it has to be JUST RIGHT.  I learned about shooting from a bench rest shooter so even thinking this way almost hurts.

Is this right or what?

Thanks

[Drydock]

Pretty much thats it.  For skirmish shooting I don't bother with the wads either, just put enough powder in the case that seating the bullet lightly compresses it.  Military rounds were loaded just that way.  Consistant loading this way can get you to 3 MOA pretty easy.  Make sure the bullet is a BP design that carries plenty of lube.

Now, for long range precision work, there's enough here to make a BR shooter happy.  Different grades and brands of powder like different amounts of compression.  Wads can stick to the bullet base, so some put circles of newsprint between the wads and bullet.  Some rounds/rifles like hot primers, some like standard primers, some swear by pistol primers.  Dare I mention paper patching . . .

[1961MJS]

Thanks, but I'm not totally sure I like shooting well enough to do paper patching.  I also don't' do wall paper.

Just sayin'

[Drydock]

https://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Buffalo-Rifles-Old-West/dp/1879356929/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8


Entertaining read, lots of good info.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/272/4/BOOK-SPG

Another good one to have on the shelf.

[RattlesnakeJack]

 Thanks for adding the photos, Chuck ... sweet looking carbine!   

[PJ Hardtack]

You can make the loading of BPCR rounds in any calibre as labour intensive as you want. Simple is better, especially if you like shooting more than reloading.

A pal of mine (who no longer shoots due to failing eyesight and other health issues) used to go the whole nine yards - weighing/sorting  bullets, weighing charges, checking cases for concentricity, wall thickness, indexing bullets and cases, etc., etc. Because I had the guns, he wanted to drag me along this route.

I told him that I'd quit shooting first. Paper patching? It is to laugh ..... It's enough of a PITA to make up paper cartridges for my '63's.

I cast good bullets, anneal, trim, put cases thru' my RCBS case prep machine, weigh charges 'lectronically, taper crimp. That's all, folks.

[Drydock]

I want to make an observation:  I've been looking at a lot of pictures and video of this carbine since receiving it.  Google "McNelly Sharps" to see what I mean.  Most date from 2013 or earlier, the time when Beliveau made his video, sparking a surge of interest in this particular model.  Looking at these pictures and video, I see a startling visual difference in these guns then and now.  The metal finish then was dull, mottled grey.  Some photo's show virtually no case color at all.  Some of the photo's show the classically ugly Italian red packing box wood.  Even Believeaus video shows a very bland, blond hardwood.   

If my gun is a good example, in the last 5 years someone at Chiappa has made a real effort at improving these guns, at least from a visual/wood/finish standpoint.   I can also see the front sight was changed from a one piece barleycorn to a practical shooter friendly changeable blade type.   Though I cannot see internals of course,  still I find this encouraging.

[PJ Hardtack]

I omitted a couple of other steps I do when loading BPCR rounds ....

I FL resize my brass, drop tube with a 24" stainless steel tube and use a compression die on top of a thin card wad for 45-70. For 50-70, I use the bullet for compression with no wad.

Works for me.

Re: the quality of your Chiappa carbine .... when you posted the pics, my reaction was "Wow! That is one very nice rifle." If yours is typical, they have a winner.

[Drydock]

I'm quite happy with it.  I plan on shooting 2 Matchs with it in march, both our local CAS match, and our Missouri Muster one week later.  I'm looking forward to it.  I have Croft Barkers book ordered BTW.  I have his .43 Spanish book as well.

[1961MJS]

Re: the quality of your Chiappa carbine .... when you posted the pics, my reaction was "Wow! That is one very nice rifle." If yours is typical, they have a winner.

Hi

From my standpoint, Chiappa's quality isn't typical.  I own two, a Chiappa Cavalry Sharps Carbine in .45-70.  The trigger pull was over 10 pounds and the rear sight ladder was completely worthless.  My 1911 gunsmith took the Cavalry gun and just stoned the bearing surfaces and now the trigger pull is about 5 pounds.  No spring work or metal removal.  

I also have a Chiappa 1886 .45-70 Lever gun that is just beautiful.  The out of the box trigger pull was 5 pounds.  I also don't have a load worked up for it.

Later

[PJ Hardtack]

Do you want a couple of recommendations?

[Drydock]

More pictures.  If you look, you can make out the assembly number: 7.  Lucky number?  Stamped on the metal parts, written in pencil on the wood.  Maybe they take a bit more time with the .50s?  Probably don't make a lot of them.

[1961MJS]

Do you want a couple of recommendations?

If you mean me, yep.  Can't hurt.  I DID get a sight that works better, but I DO need to shim it.

Later

[PJ Hardtack]

Drydock has covered the BP recipe. Mike Venturino first mentioned it in his book on BPCRs.

For smokeless, try 28 grs 5744 with the 450 gr Lyman 515141 or Rapine 375 gr bullet. The latter is out of print and you may have to hunt for an equivalent.

The 5744 load shoots to the same point of aim as the BP loads - with MY rifle. You get some unburned powder grs. Big deal.

Incidentally, the same powder 5744 charges work in the 45-70 with the Lyman 457193 420 gr RNFP and the RCBS 350 gr RNFP.

[Drydock]

https://www.buffaloarms.com/brass-oak-drop-tube-for-black-powder-cartridge-droptube2

I would add, for any cartridge of greater than 40 grains capacity, I think a drop tube is vital.  Drop tube loads burn cleaner, and make possible single digit standard deviations.   I don't do much else in the way of precision loading, but I do use a drop tube.  It's the best way to consistently settle the powder.  And consistency is everything in the BP rifle cartridge.  Bullet, bullet lube, powder, powder settling, powder compression, primer, all need to be consistent for best results,  

A BP rifle cartridge need only be a proper BP lubed bullet, powder and primer.  But those 3 components need to be loaded as consistent as possible.  Do that, and 3 moa is easy.  That's all you need for combat/field use.  Especially if it's one of the straight cased American rounds.

The above is a nice one, and it also shows how easy it is to make one.

[Pitspitr]

You can make the loading of BPCR rounds in any calibre as labour intensive as you want. Simple is better, especially if you like shooting more than reloading.

A pal of mine (who no longer shoots due to failing eyesight and other health issues) used to go the whole nine yards - weighing/sorting  bullets, weighing charges, checking cases for concentricity, wall thickness, indexing bullets and cases, etc., etc. Because I had the guns, he wanted to drag me along this route.

I told him that I'd quit shooting first. Paper patching? It is to laugh ..... It's enough of a PITA to make up paper cartridges for my '63's.

I cast good bullets, anneal, trim, put cases thru' my RCBS case prep machine, weigh charges 'lectronically, taper crimp. That's all, folks.

Your recipe (not your friend's) pretty much sounds like my recipe except that I add that I drill out the flash holes. I started doing that because Wolf recommended it in his book. Then after doing it to a couple of batches of brass, I found that W-W brass has VERY inconsistent flash hole size and that by drilling it out they are going to be more consistent. And I don't weigh BP. I throw them by volume and drop tube them. Other guys will produce more accurate loads, but I don't shoot well enough to need any more accuracy than what my loads produce.

[Drydock]

Hey PJ, he's got a .45-70! 

But its pretty much the same.  My load is the same Lee 4.0cc dipper of OE 3f, leveled with an old credit card, under the Lee 405 HB, OAL of 2.55".  I use a Winchester WLR primer, Starline brass, and uniform the primer holes.  Lube in the lube grooves, with the base empty and clean.  Powder slowly poured into the case with a Drop Tube.  This gives light compression with the bullet.    Do not use wads with a hollow base bullet, they can cock in the hollow and cause flyers.  Plain base bullets can be used, but they must be a Black Powder design, with generous lube capacity.  Adjust powder as needed to ensure light compression. (defined as no more than the depth of one driving band on the bullet) or use a card wad to achieve same.

I cast these hot, preheating the mold on a hot plate.  I keep only the ones that are fully filled out, any round edges are thrown back in the pot, or set aside for plinking/armidillo loads.  Frosted appearance does not bother me.

28 grains 5744 under this bullet works well.

[PJ Hardtack]

28 grs of 5744 works well in the 45-70 as well with both 420 and 350 gr bullets.