Do Spencers need to be pistol caliber for NCOWS events?

[Dakota Widowmaker]

My Taylors Spencer is 56-50 and I would like to use it for those matches.

[Style points, you know...]

Has there been much discussion on the Talyors Spencer that I should bring my attention to?

[Wymore Wrangler]

Taylor reproduction of Spencers are allowed under NCOWS rules, the 56-50 though can only be used on a case by case basis at local clubs, the Nebraska Territorial Rangers at Logan, Iowa does not allow the 56-50 at their range currently....

[Major Matt Lewis]

But the Kansas Vigiliance Committee just south or Kansas City does allow them.  So it truly is on a club by club basis....

[Steel Horse Bailey]

There is belief that the big boolit will harm, dent or de-weld targets.  This is possibly true of steel targets that are made of softer, cheaper, or thinner steel.

However, if the NCOWS Eastern Regional is any indication, there were several big-bore Spencers and they had no effect on the targets except for the nice KLAANG!

[Kayleen]

 We have seen them used here at the Ackley range and even the Nationals has had them used. No problem. But it is a club by club thing.
Kayleen

[Irish Dave]

They are certainly permitted at the Great Lakes Freight and Mining Co. shoots in east central Indiana.

[Grizzle Bear]

CAN O'WORMS ALERT!  CAN O'WORMS ALERT!  CAN O'WORMS ALERT!

Well, now...................

For those that want to abide by the strict definition of the rules, the list of "Approved Cartridge Firearms" simply states "Spencer all Models." 

In the By-Laws under "NCOWS Rules and Regulations", it says "Approved calibers and loads include any that were introduced prior to or during the period 1865-1899 and that were originally introduced as a black powder load."

For the real quibblers, we have to ask "When was the .56-50 centerfire introduced?  This, I have been unable to determine.  But, as the centerfire version holds less powder than the rimfire, it is certainly less of a hazard downrange.

But, under the "Authenticity" section, it says "Center-fire calibers may substitute for original rim-fire calibers in reproduction firearms."  So that point is moot.

Reading through the revised, updated By-Laws, I no longer see any reference to "pistol-caliber rifles."  It just says that rifles must be in an approved caliber.

I also note that while we do have maximum velocities listed for smokeless powder loads, no such limits are shown for black powder loads.  Physics takes care of that problem.

The only possible problem I can find is under the safety procedures, where it states "Shooters may be held responsible for damage caused to a target by too "hot" a load."  As my .56-50 loads generate less energy than a factory smokless .45 Colt round, I think it would be difficult to blame any broken targets on me!

So, it would seem to me that I could show up at any NCOWS sanctioned shoot with my .56-50 Spencer, and they would have to allow me to use it.

Cal and Lou, what say you?  May I use my Spencer at NTR?  And is there anyplace else that doesn't allow them?

Grizzle Bear

[Dakota Widowmaker]

GB-

All of your points are ones that I have read before and agree with.

My 56-50 with GOEX FFFg and 350gr 30:1 lead bullet is nice, slow, soft, and LOT-O-SMOKE!!! (isn't that why we really  shoot these things anyhow?)

The bullet is so soft, my finger nail will mark it easily. And, since it is only 100gr more than 250gr LC loads with just a pinch more powder (45gr vs. 37gr) I fail to see how it would damage a target. My carbine only sends it down range at 850fps anyhow...

But, as others have said, its a range-by-range basis.

I was really hoping to use it at the NTR shoot this next summer during an event...hope I can either get approval or the local club allow it by then.

[Wymore Wrangler]

Here is the ruling from our Marshal Tracy Thorpe on the case by case basis....

So for know here is a ruling. I spoke to the Judge on this matter and will stand by his feelings on the Spencer 56/50 for main match use. 'The use of the Spencer rifle in caliber 56/50 will only be allowed for main match use on a posse by posse basis. It is optional. If a posse has no problem with it that is fine. If a posse does not allow it, understand it and respect it. It is their range and their targets you are shooting at.' This should be fair enough until it can be discussed if necessary in November

I am unaware of any change to this by the Congress at the November meeting, so was this ruling changed....

[Lone Gunman]

I am unaware of any change to this by the Congress at the November meeting, so was this ruling changed....

Unfortunately there were several items that everyone must have assumed someone else had already submitted for the November agenda and consequently they weren't submitted at all.  I anticipate we'll have a full agenda for the Convention meeting to remedy that.

[Grizzle Bear]

See, can o'worms..........

The points I was trying to make are:

1. There is no basis in fact for the notion the the .56-50 cartridge is going to damage any targets, beyond the normal battering they take.

2. There is no basis in any NCOWS rule or regulation to prohibit the use of the .56-50 cartridge.  On the contrary, it is specifically allowed.

Now, with all that said and done, there does beat the heart of a gentleman beneath this rude and crude exterior, and therefore I asked permission of Norm and Cindy to use this particular firearm at their shoot.  And I would not use it there  without their permission.

And I do not think this is anything the Congress needs to address.  As more Spencers in .56-50 show up on the firing line, everyone will see it is not the giant-killer they thought it was.  And any local prohibitions on its' use will fall by the wayside.

Now, if you want something that breaks targets, let me tell you about my Brown Bess musket.............

Grizzle Bear

[RattlesnakeJack]

Now, if you want something that breaks targets, let me tell you about my Brown Bess musket...........

Or my .577/.450 Martini-Henry!   

[French Jack]

Now Griz---  are you forgetting that someone with a Spencer was alleged to have shot the moon at the Nationals, and to have severely wounded the Space Shuttle.  They have also been reputed to be responsible for falling hair, warts ( or was that toads), dyspepsia, dropsy, blue mould and other sanguine and blood thirsty ailments.  
What are you trying to do???  You can't just dismantle the dread and horror that mention of the Spencer brings.  That would be strictly anti- American.  Are you willing to dispel the 150 years of tradition that has added to the fame and lustre of the world's deadliest lever action rifle?  The dread "Yankee Horizontal Shot Tower"?      AAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

[Grizzle Bear]

Jack, it seems like every time we debunk one old superstition, another one rises in its' place.

Although, maybe shooting the Spencer does explain the wart on my hand..........


Grizzle Bear

[Kayleen]

Griz,
  I can still find some good remedies in my Lavendar suitcase that my other personality carrys. You know the snake oil salesperson. I have various ointments, salves and concoctions to cure most anything. Because the chant is naughty, I cannot post it here. If one needs to know, PM me.
But I know it will take the warts off your hands.
Another solution, ship all your Spencer rifles to me and I will test fire them at various thicknesses of steel targets, if there is target damage I will dispose of the gun in the proper way. You check will be in the mail the next day.

Kayleen

[Black River Smith]

Dakota,

There were 3 or 4 of them(originals and Taylors) used at the July 2005 Nationals.  Mine as you are aware was not up an running or else I would have used it.  I will next year if they are allowed.

Before the Nationals, it was one of those hot hot topics with a lottt of debate both ways.  I was part of it.


Good to see you over on this board

Black River Smith

[French Jack]

Don't fall for that one, Griz!  You KNOW how That Disposal works!  They are buying back firearms for a mere pittance.  If you need money that badly, sell them an old rusted up piece of junk.  They pay the same.  Take the money and go buy some more brass cases for your Spencer.  
Sorry, Kayleen, I just couldn't stand by and let you con him like that.  Besides, warts are easy to remove--     blue ointment works wonders.        ?

[Books OToole]

I got a good sharp knife. (or two, or.....)

Books

[Dr. Bob]

Books,

Ya don't have as many knives as the Ol' Doc has!!!

Griz,

Only cost a couple of Bear Bucks!  Such a deal.

[Cal and Lou]

Howdy Griz,

In the nine years of holding Western Action shoots, we have had some targets damaged and/or worn out at NTR ranges. This is part of the operating cost and can be expected.

As the by-laws state, Spencer models are approved. We take your word on the 56-50 black powder loads generating less energy than factory smokeless .45 Colt. We will chronograph these loads also for further facts.

When NTR officers declared only pistol caliber rifle loads for matches, the general thought was smokeless loads such as 30-30 not being accepted.

NTR officers will discuss the Spencer 56-50 at our next committee meeting. Our posse's policies are to not be exclusive, but inclusive to all shooters.