Authenticity

[Major 2]

Thanks for the warm welcome Major,

Thought I had a point, but not being an NCOWS shooter, I should have saved my thought for some other part of the forum. Really makes me want to search out an NCOWS chapter in the Northeast.

Reverend Chase

Not sure I did ,  But I do now, I gladly offer your a warm welcome should you try NCOWS....

[Templar]

Major 2:

Ya'll missing my point here.

I don't give a hoot wether you shoot one handed or two.

The problem I am trying to elucidate on is the recent change to combine the two handed shooters with the one handed in the same category. . While you are concerned with offending the two handed shooters, you seem to be okay with brushing aside the duelist.

The most recent Shootist magazine is trying to gather support for the national and regional shoots. Why would any duelist pay to play with a group who is okay with handicapping them in the competition? The reality is that most of us "normal" folks do not stand a chance in a competition with a two handed shooter . Look, I shoot in SASS with two handed folks who routinely have stage times in the 15 to 20 seconds as two handed shooters, while during the same stage I shoot in the 35 to 40 seconds as a duelist. I don't care, they are in a different class. As a retiree on a fixed income, I would never attend an NCOWS match where I pay extra to play, have travel, hotel and meal expenses all for the pleasure of having no chance to compete equally.

All I'm saying is the recent change to combine the two hand grippers with the duelist shooters is unfair to the duelist. Will you not agree or will you still deny this impact on duelist shooters?

BTW: I seem to have read that the duelist "Black Powder" shooters still have their own category . Looks like this "Special Interest" group had enough LOBBYISTs' that they are unaffected by this most recent rule change. Funny how this mimics our own present politicians in Washington.

[Major 2]

I think you over stated your point , and at least to me , "Authenticity"  it seemed to reflect the historic accuracy aspect....

Now you are clearer, you do not care for the latest Rules structure ...

Frankly, you are not an "ISLAND" ..... many have expressed the same ... read the letters to the Ed. in our Shootist...

truth is , I shot Smokeless Duelist....   

" I seem to have read that the duelist "Black Powder" shooters  still have their own category "  you are correct

you say " I would never attend an NCOWS match where I pay extra to play, have travel, hotel and meal expenses all for the pleasure of having no chance to compete equally."

Better to join those that would write or support an amendment to correct Smokeless Duelist vs smokeless or BP two handed shooters.

I will, in the mean time shoot duelist "Black Powder".

join the movement , don't boycott 

[Professor Marvel]

join the movement , don't boycott  

I like that, sir.



yhs
prof marvel

[llanerosolitario]

http://www.revolver1873.fr/1873-marine.php

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/world-firearms/547574d1375374460-webley-scott-455-1913-mki-n-navy-automatic-pistol-002.jpg?s=d232380007e2a46157b228d387fc3711

https://ospreypublishing.com/the-webley-service-revolver

Two handed shooting is not historically correct, period.


on the other side.... ISSF Rapid Fire shooters....one hand...5 shots in 4 seconds...25 meters....living proof that one hand shooting is probably faster and allways more accurate.. (if they dont hit the 10,  2" circle, then it is scored  as a "miss").

[John William McCandles]

I shoot only NCOWS matches, have been for sometime now and I can't say as I've seen to many 15-20 second two handed shooters at a match, be it local or a major match.
Matter of fact a one handed shooter won the Men's 2 gun class at the recent NCOWS Eastern Regional.
If you want change submit a proposal and attend congress to speak for said proposal.


Regards
JW

[greyhawk]

I shoot only NCOWS matches, have been for sometime now and I can't say as I've seen to many 15-20 second two handed shooters at a match, be it local or a major match.
Matter of fact a one handed shooter won the Men's 2 gun class at the recent NCOWS Eastern Regional.
If you want change submit a proposal and attend congress to speak for said proposal.


Regards
JW

Thought I would take another shot at this
I dont shoot you guys events but I have shot a single action pistol often enough and long enough to know for sure that in a competition event - yeah something where there is a prize for winning or at least some kind of kudos/acknowledgement - a competition event where you put two handed shooters in the same class as one handed shooters - again - somebody just got screwed !!!! - the one hand shooter just got hisself a serious handicap - yeah some individuals are good enough to win things off a handicap (golf thrives on that idea) ..... a lot of this depends on how things is writ and in which direction stuff got changed.
If it was always open class (two hands) and some dude thinks he can do it one hand better - who cares! .......If one hand got cancelled cuz of lack of patronage - too,bad. .......but two handed duelist??? nah that would be BS . 
cheers  Greyhawk

[Will Ketchum]

I'll not say any more about the authenticity of shooting with two hands.  I will comment on the necessity to have such an option.  We have many shooters who would be physically unable to participate if we limited our shooters to shooting duelist.  We do the best we can to be as authentic as we are able given the constraints of living in the 21st Century.
We could carry the authenticity to an extreme and not allow shooters over a certain age because we can't document and gunfights that involved persons that old.
We are still a sport. One where we want as many people as possible to participate. In the past we have had shooters confined to wheel chairs that were obviously of modern design. Yes we did have some people complain but not only was it a legal requirement to allow them to shoot but also a moral one. With all that said I also disagree with combining the 2 shooting styles in the same class. We haven't done so since the very earliest days of our organization.  If I were still a member of the congress I would have stood in opposition to such a change but I'm not.
All that is needed to go back is for every member to contact their representative and to express their displeasure. As the good Major said we are a member ran group.

Will Ketchum 

[Templar]

Interesting to see how the smoke blew on this subject.

Seems quite a few of you are very concerned about alienating the two handed shooter.

BUT, looks like very few cared about alienating the duelist shooter.

The Territorial Congress voted to combine all the duelists and two handed shooters into the same competition classes (except for Traditional black powder). They made the rules and they will live with the consequences.

As for this cowboy, I think I'll just saddle up and ride down the trail.

Captain Quigley
NCOWS L-131

[Cliff Fendley]

Captain Quigley here,

I have been a NCOWS member longer than I can remember. Joined even when the closest NCOWS shoot was a days drive from Colorado. Enjoyed what you(we) stood for and the magazine, even though I could not participate. BTW, I am also a SASS member, have been for decades. I have since moved to SC and have brought in 2 new members to NCOWS.

I would like to ask all the Territorial Congress members what providence they used to approve the Two Handed shooting method as being period correct. I read in every Shootist on how we pride ourselves on "Authenticity", "Old West Spirit", and Reenacting, per the black page of the Shootist. We frequently see on the front cover a member using a two handed grip. As a 20+ year veteran of Civil War and Indian wars cavalry, I am fairly well versed in period correct authencity and the historical research used to justify the equipment , and procedures we use. I have never seen or read a single incidence where a two handed revolver hold was taught or documented. Well, there was Mattie holding that horse pistol in True Grit, but a single incidence does not document common usage .

Now ya'll went and combined this "Creative Anachnorism" into the same class as the members who use a single handed hold as was done in the times we portray.

What has happened here? While you constantly berate SASS, you have allowed, no preferred, the same speed shooting method that the "Fastest" shooters use to win their Top Competitor competitions. There is no way the average duelist shooter can match the speed of a two handed shooting method. Were the two handed Gamers not winning enough awards to fuel their egos?

Yes, yes...you passed this change off as a method to reduce they number of classes.

Well, here is a suggestion. Eliminate the two handed shooting method, except for the young, weak or infirm. Eliminate this two handed anachronism from all shoots (except for Mattie) and  truly and authentically represent the Old West we claim to portray.

Just my humble opinions and suggestion from this life long cowboy, historian, and cavalry reenact.

Captain Quigley
NCOWS L-131
aka: Terry Guriel

First you can't eliminate two handed shooting all together. There are too many people that may not even be comfortable shooting one handed even if they wanted to.

It's much better than when I started NCOWS. Then ALL two gun shooters except for Originals were allowed two handed. We then separated the categories in every way and people complained about too many categories. Now we have a complaint about this. We can only try to keep everyone happy and invite input. I do feel the way it is divided now pretty much covers it from an authenticity standpoint. This is how I thought working cowboy should have been divided from the start. I suppose there is the short period in which early smokeless propellants came about during the NCOWS time period but how widespread available did they really become throughout the west before 1899 and it was not available for reloading. Hand reloading kits for cartridges were not uncommon. Therefore it's possible just as many people may have been using two hands as were shooting smokeless powder. And to my understanding the early smokeless powders were not so smokeless.

My point in that is if you want to use authenticity as a reason to shoot one handed then you probably should be considering black powder to go along with it in which the argument is mute. Hence the traditional and open shooting categories.

Also if you come actually shoot one of our events you'll find accuracy and getting on target is more of a factor than quick cocking the hammer. A one handed shooter just won the NCOWS Eastern regional in the two gun open category. I have found (and it depends on the wind) that black powder on average is more of a hindrance to time because of losing sight of the targets.

Regarding authenticity, one of the few stand in the street face off gunfights to really be documented to ever happen, Hickock was reported to have supported his pistol with his off arm or hand. If for sure he did or how he did it we will never know.

Edit, you probably should just consider shooting real gun powder anyway because I'm thinking this smokeless powder thing is just a fad that will soon fade out.

[Major 2]

.....  As for this cowboy, I think I'll just saddle up and ride down the trail.

Captain Quigley
NCOWS L-131

Sorry to see that,  the movement,  should there be one to address changing the combined  Duelist & two handed , might have welcomed the support

[greyhawk]

Interesting to see how the smoke blew on this subject.

Seems quite a few of you are very concerned about alienating the two handed shooter.

BUT, looks like very few cared about alienating the duelist shooter.

The Territorial Congress voted to combine all the duelists and two handed shooters into the same competition classes (except for Traditional black powder). They made the rules and they will live with the consequences.

As for this cowboy, I think I'll just saddle up and ride down the trail.

Captain Quigley

Not my argyment but I stuck me nose in it anyways - seems like a simple fix here - fill er up with black - (REAL GUNPOWDER) - no mousefart loaded , limp wristed, two handed duellists allowed there - the real quigley shot black cuz there warnt nuthin else - once ya get the hang of it ya wont go back to that - pop - clink - pop - 2 grains of powder BS 
NCOWS L-131

[Pitspitr]

I don't know, it seems pretty simple to me. If you shoot duelist and you don't want to compete against the shootists, shoot black powder. If you really want to shoot smokeless, shoot shootist.

Myself I don't see the big deal about the plaque, certificate or whatever. I mean, I just want to be the best I can be. I've won several state, regional, national and even a world title in different disciplines, but every time I go out shooting, I'm really just shooting against myself. If just it's all about bringing home hardware, that's setting yourself up for disappointment. You know when you didn't shoot well. And you know when you did. You don't need a trophy to tell the difference.

[Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE to Pitspitr

[Professor Marvel]

As Will Ketchum said - they try to please as many as possible. But you can't please everyone.

He also said - go to your representative. beat the drum about your concern.

In other words, if you really want some change , one must actively work for change.

Myself I don't see the big deal about the plaque, certificate or whatever. I mean, I just want to be the best I can be. I've won several state, regional, national and even a world title in different disciplines, but every time I go out shooting, I'm really just shooting against myself. If just it's all about bringing home hardware, that's setting yourself up for disappointment. You know when you didn't shoot well. And you know when you did. You don't need a trophy to tell the difference.

THIS ^^^

like all shooting sports NCOWS is  just another game.

that bears repeating: JUST ANOTHER GAME

for so many of us, JUST GETTING TO PLAY, and get out and shoot, and enjoy meeting the people and the the costumes
is the WHOLE THING. The folks running the game have totry to work in as many people as possible, and that includes
one-handed shooters, and crippled old guys that still want to shoot!

If one is soooooo competitive that one will leave the sport if they "can't level the playing field"  because some poor old codger is allowed to shoot with two hands,  then isn't the problem in their own head?

None of us could compete with a Bob Mundum or Ed McGivern, nor can we compete with Olympic runners. Should  that sour
you so much that youwould quit? I should hope not.

I myself use to shoot "Bowling Pins" , PPC , IPSC, etc etc. but I soured on that. Even then I knew there would be different "tiers" of shooters...  I could aspire to reaach the top half, then the top third, but I would never make it far. What finally soured me was
the extreme gadgetry, no "as issued" class, and he fact that speed was everything.

Now I shoot as slow as I llike, CAS  Percussion C&B using BP or subs.... WHEN I CAN GET OUT!
and I myself tell the timer - "don't worry about me, just slap me on the shoulder when its time to start and be preparred for some
looooong  times... " I even joke about "competing for last place".

Lately all I can do is steal an hour once or twice a month at the indoor range in town, and shoot smokeless out of conversion cylinders. But I am enjoying my revovlers, and at least I am still refining my kit &  outfit at home, still shooting, and I get to enjoy the commaraderie and company  of you folks here on CAS City no matter how vicarious it may be.

I posted earlier,  "divided we die" and it's true. Sad but true.

but when one finds a game no longer enjoyable , perhaps it is time to quit and find something else that won't blow one's gasket.

Life is already too short to have a stroke over a game.

yhs
prof marvel

[Pitspitr]

EXACTLY!

[Cliff Fendley]

Interesting to see how the smoke blew on this subject.

Seems quite a few of you are very concerned about alienating the two handed shooter.

BUT, looks like very few cared about alienating the duelist shooter.

The Territorial Congress voted to combine all the duelists and two handed shooters into the same competition classes (except for Traditional black powder). They made the rules and they will live with the consequences.

As for this cowboy, I think I'll just saddle up and ride down the trail.

Captain Quigley
NCOWS L-131

At the 2016 National shoot when everything was separated there was only one person to shoot 3 gun smokeless duelist and that person shoots black powder quite often so would have just as easily shot the current traditional category.

There was also one person to shoot the four gun smokeless duelist.

There were four people that shot the 2 gun smokeless duelist and the top two of those would have been first and second in the shootist category.

Keep in mind these are just the mandatory classes required to be offered, your posse can add categories at your regular shoots if your members choose to do so.

[Coffinmaker]

Professor Marvel.  I must bow to your eloquence.  I'm trying to come up with a way to say it better but I just can't.  I well remember those halcyon days of yesteryear when I chased the Brass Ring.  Now I just chase a soft roll of toilette paper.  There are some extenuating circumstances (who cares) but is just so really nice those days where I can get out with friends, bust some caps and enjoy the day.

It is, after all JUST A GAME.  To be played by each at his or her own level.  Some have attached some mystical importance to winning.  I have attached mystical importance to joining others for biscuits-n-gravy, shooting up a gob of powder and swapping lies.  Let none of us forget ..... IT IS JUST A GAME.  Let us PLAY.

I use to finish my safety briefings (I were a safety officer) with:  IF YOU CAN'T HAVE FUN ....... GO HOME.

[greyhawk]

I don't know, it seems pretty simple to me. If you shoot duelist and you don't want to compete against the shootists, shoot black powder. If you really want to shoot smokeless, shoot shootist.

Seems like this just needs some thought and a bit of tidying up - personally I would be seriously un sympathetic to someone complaining about authenticity while shooting smokeless - pffft tink loads.

Myself I don't see the big deal about the plaque, certificate or whatever. I mean, I just want to be the best I can be. I've won several state, regional, national and even a world title in different disciplines, but every time I go out shooting, I'm really just shooting against myself. If just it's all about bringing home hardware, that's setting yourself up for disappointment. You know when you didn't shoot well. And you know when you did. You don't need a trophy to tell the difference.

not meaning to be nasty here so dont take it that way -----Have heard that latter statement  A LOT!!    always from some one who has been good enough at the game to make the elite grade and almost always accompanied by a short accounting of achievements (as herein stated above) - if you were an average punter who tries really hard every time he goes out and never quite makes the podium - I do not believe you would show the same disdain for the acknowledgement of success on those rare occasions you achieved it - I get what you are trying to say and I agree with the logic behind it - just when it comes down from on high it kinda misses the mark ----""been there done that and it didnt really matter - well why do it in the first place then?"..................you should be damn proud of your world title ane a few of the other things where you really nailed it

[Professor Marvel]

not meaning to be nasty here so dont take it that way -----Have heard that latter statement  A LOT!!    always from some one who has been good enough at the game to make the elite grade and almost always accompanied by a short accounting of achievements (as herein stated above) - if you were an average punter who tries really hard every time he goes out and never quite makes the podium - I do not believe you would show the same disdain for the acknowledgement of success on those rare occasions you achieved it - I get what you are trying to say and I agree with the logic behind it - just when it comes down from on high it kinda misses the mark ----""been there done that and it didnt really matter - well why do it in the first place then?"..................you should be damn proud of your world title ane a few of the other things where you really nailed it

My Dear Greyhawk -

actually I do understand it. I AM that punter.I practiced long and hard!

When shooting 1911's competetively I practiced daily and reloaded everynight. after well over 18 months , with coaching,  I was forced to come to grips with the reality that I would never make the top 10%  locally, let alone regionally. Once I came to deal with that, I found I practiced less but enjoyed it more!  Oddly, with the insane pressure off, I found my scores improved...

I also shot A LOT of trap, but was never competitive there either. However that was far more fun and had more friendly comaraderie ( much like CAS) and FUN SHOOTS ( like CAS) .

The big difference was the clubs.

The Bullseye, Bowling Pin, PPC, and IPSC crowds were deadly serious and cut-throat .

On the Other Hand, The old Trap Club and the local CAS ( oh, and the local archery club!!) are more laid back,
more supportive of each other, and far friendlier. It's all about the friendships.

And that is where I get my jollies and my accolades.  
Just having the locals say,
      "Damn Prof, you were even funnier this time than last! But you're shooting safely and hitting the tragets!
       "How long was your time this time anyway?"
That is plenty for me.

If one has a NEED to compete - then compete against yourself !
Work to better your accuracy, your times, your smoothness and transitions.
When practicing use a timer, and knockdowns, and keep moving them further back....

And remember, since this is NCOWS - one can compete by improving your personna, costume, accoutrements, background,
support doco ....


This is going to sound all Zen and philosophical and etc, but :

= Its a GAME.
       There are always winners and losers. learn to lose gracefully it happens more often.
        In some games some folks will never be a winner. ( like me and poker.) - learn to accept it.

= Understand your limitations, and accept them.
       Remember,  you will never sing better than the nightingale.
       But that doesn't mean stop trying to improve

= "Dance like no one is watching"
       Play the game out of joy.
       If you are not enjoying it you're doing it wrong. Or need to pick another game.

= Pick the right wolf to feed!
      An Old Ojibaway Elder once told me -
       Inside all of us are several wolves that fight amongst themselves:
          Fear, Anger, Greed, Envy, Hate; but also
          Selflessness, Generosity, Compassion, Forgiveness,and Love
       The wolves you feed within you will grow strong and win .
        Pick the right Wolves.


hope this helps
prof marvel

PS: - most of this is called Good Sportsmanship, and
I learned it in Gradeschool playing softball, basketball, tag football, all games I did only average at.  
Have we forgotten Good Sportsmanship in the extreme competetiveness to win at any cost?