'51 Navy Barrel Wedge Tightness

[The Trinity Kid]

Good Morning all.

I have had a Pietta '51 for coming up on four years now (due to school and work, I don't get out with it much,) and I'm looking at converting it with a drop in R&D.  Naturally, this requires removing the barrel to load/unload the cylinder, and this is where my problem comes in.
My barrel wedge is ridiculously tight!  I sharpened the end of a piece of dowel (recently chewed up by a dog  ) and I use a 1lb hammer to drive it through.  But I have to whack it pretty hard.  Comparable to driving a sturdy nail hard.  I have taken some 0000 steel wool and polished the points on the wedge where it had obviously high spots, but it hasn't really helped.  It's just way harder than seems necessary.  It's certainly harder than Mike Bellevue in his videos.
  I've considered taking and smoothing it out with an 1800 grit stone, but I'm afraid of getting it too loose.  Which means my question is, how tight/loose should it be?
I've heard varying opinions, from "you should be able to pull it out with your fingers" to "you should need a hydraulic ram to remove it."  What's the truth?

--TK

[Professor Marvel]

Well, Greetings My Good Trinity!

Funny you should mention, as I am pursuing this EXACT SAME ENDEVOUR ....

I have a new-to-me Pietta 1851 with the "too tight driven in with a sledghammer" wedge. And a Howell conversion cylinder.

I know what I think I want to do, but before I set someone else down the wrong path,  I thought I would put in this little
"waste of space and electrons" to let you know you are not alone whilst we wait for Goon, Pettifogger, Coffinmaker, or one of the other professional C&B gun cranks to come back from getting their booze medication coffee and chime in
on "how much to take off" of "which side" of  "what part" ...

yhs
prof (getting meds coffee ) marvel

[45 Dragoon]

Well OK,  just so you guys understand, there's a couple of "schools of thought" on this subject.

From my perspective, I'm interested in the revolver being the same revolver, shot after shot, re-assembly after re-assembly.
The "re-assembly" part is easy because of the "length of arbor" formula (see Mr. Pettifogger). The shot after shot, I believe, depends on the type of ammo you'll be shooting.  Apparently, light loads and very light loads are fine for a wedge fitting that allows the removal with just "thumb pressure". 
  I'm more of a upper end/max load shooter. That requires more than " thumb pressure " to keep enough tension between to joined assys. to keep the wedge from loosening. The instructions from the Colts factory instructs one to " drive the wedge out" to disassemble. Re-assembly is reverse. That, to me, sounds like more than "thumb pressure". 

So, a good hard plastic hammer or wooden handled screw driver to " whack" the wedge in and out with is what I would recommend if you're shooting smokless or full house bp loads. If you're shooting CASS/SASS type loads,  then, use the thumb pressure .  .  .  thingy, .  .  .  . I guess. 

All the SASS/CASS shooters I have set up SAs for have to "whack um" , even the "off the gun loaders". That's just the way I do um.

Mike

[Professor Marvel]

So, a good hard plastic hammer or wooden handled screw driver to " whack" the wedge in and out with is what I would recommend if you're shooting smokless or full house bp loads. If you're shooting CASS/SASS type loads,  then, use the thumb pressure .  .  .  thingy, .  .  .  . I guess. 

All the SASS/CASS shooters I have set up SAs for have to "whack um" , even the "off the gun loaders". That's just the way I do um.

Mike

Greetings Mike

yes, but I believe there is a great deal of difference between "what we got" and "what you advise"
we re talking "blacksmith hammer" and brass drift.

and I can't even "drive" the wedge that far in again. and in my case getting the wedge out even broke the wedge spring off.

soooooooo

I was assuming  planning cogitating upon taking itty bitty teeny tiny shavings off the width of the wedge
(using the paradime paradgmi thought "always molest the cheapest part first") until it "fit well with some pressure".

howsomever, I am confounded as to whether the Pietta 1851 has a square or tapered wedge hole? And if some, which way?
and if so which way to more correctly fit? and if not which edge should be thinned first? both? only one?

i am thinking of taking a wax castiing of the wedge cut in the cylinder spindle thing, to measure,  just for posterity, you know...

yhs
prof mumbels

[The Trinity Kid]

I looked at my wedge, and it is tapered. 

I just got done with the stone, and it's made a difference.  I just barely took off more than the bluing (some is still left), but now I can drift it in and out with a clothes pin leg, and use the handle of a screw driver as a mallet. 

--TK

[Coffinmaker]

Ah, my good Professor Mumbles.

I myself am 180 around from 45 Dragoon.  I set my guns and my customers guns up for the wedge to be installed with tony your thumb.  Normally, with the wedge pushed in solidly "Thumb" tight, after shooting a stage the wedge will require a light tap to remove.  

The fit requirement is that the wedge penetrate thru both sides of the barrel lug.  How Far??  Some like the retention spring in the wedge to clear the off side of the lug.  That's OK.  Some prefer the wedge "just" poke thru.  Thats OK.  The spring doohickey is intended to catch on the retaining screw and prevent the wedge from falling out in the heat of a fight and the hapless trooper losing it in the weeds, grass, gravel, dirt, creek and what have you.  Was not intended to exactly hold the wedge thru the Lug.

Most often in a new gun, the wedge doesn't fit.  At All.  The side of the wedge to be "adjusted" is the side of the wedge toward the breach/cylinder.  The other side should be left alone.  The muzzle side butts against a raised anvil in the Arbor.  Don't mess with it.  There are two ways to "fit" the wedge.  1.  Lay a nice sharp file down on a solid surface, whilst holding the appropriate side square to the file, stroke the wedge to SLOWLY remove metal evenly.  Try fit often.  Try fit VERY often.  2.  Do ya feel lucky bucks??  Well do ya??  Did I fire fi...... you get it.  Lock the wedge in a Machinists Vice and have at the appropriate side with a nice Sharp file.  Remember, you have to keep the flat square.  Try Fit.  Try Fit ALOT!!  When you feel you have the wedge where you can snug it up with your Thumb, lightly break all four edges.  Now for the the OTHER thing to remember.  Expect the wedge to "Shoot in" as you put the gun into service.  The wedge will get just a tad looser in the slot and push further thru.  If it suddenly pushed all the way thru and is not tight, Order a new one and start over     I always have a supply of wedges "on hand."  

[greyhawk]

Ah, my good Professor Mumbles.

I myself am 180 around from 45 Dragoon.  I set my guns and my customers guns up for the wedge to be installed with tony your thumb.  Normally, with the wedge pushed in solidly "Thumb" tight, after shooting a stage the wedge will require a light tap to remove.  

The fit requirement is that the wedge penetrate thru both sides of the barrel lug.  How Far??  Some like the retention spring in the wedge to clear the off side of the lug.  That's OK.  Some prefer the wedge "just" poke thru.  Thats OK.  The spring doohickey is intended to catch on the retaining screw and prevent the wedge from falling out in the heat of a fight and the hapless trooper losing it in the weeds, grass, gravel, dirt, creek and what have you.  Was not intended to exactly hold the wedge thru the Lug.

Most often in a new gun, the wedge doesn't fit.  At All.  The side of the wedge to be "adjusted" is the side of the wedge toward the breach/cylinder.  The other side should be left alone.  The muzzle side butts against a raised anvil in the Arbor.  Don't mess with it.  There are two ways to "fit" the wedge.  1.  Lay a nice sharp file down on a solid surface, whilst holding the appropriate side square to the file, stroke the wedge to SLOWLY remove metal evenly.  Try fit often.  Try fit VERY often.  2.  Do ya feel lucky bucks??  Well do ya??  Did I fire fi...... you get it.  Lock the wedge in a Machinists Vice and have at the appropriate side with a nice Sharp file.  Remember, you have to keep the flat square.  Try Fit.  Try Fit ALOT!!  When you feel you have the wedge where you can snug it up with your Thumb, lightly break all four edges.  Now for the the OTHER thing to remember.  Expect the wedge to "Shoot in" as you put the gun into service.  The wedge will get just a tad looser in the slot and push further thru.  If it suddenly pushed all the way thru and is not tight, Order a new one and start over     I always have a supply of wedges "on hand."  

Coffinmaker
I made solid wedges for my guns - laziness at the start (cutting that groove in the middle was work n I seem to seek avoidance of work) - however - without the groove cutout in the middle I believe the wedge is a way more stable thing (particularly in a walker) seems to resist deformation much better - with the arbor adjustment done and solid wedge I like the way they go together - one lil tap for me is good - have not had a wedge come loose in shooting (yet) .....I guess we are setting up to loose a wedge in the grass at some point without the retaining screw but for plinking/range shooting - its simple and works great - and I do believe is a more solid setup.
greyhawk 

[45 Dragoon]

Professor,
Try a punch on the wedge. A needle file in a dremel can make you a pocket for the punch. I know what you mean about breaking springs. Don't know why Pietta thinks they should over hang the end !!?

Greyhawk,
   I like the solid wedge idea. A solid wedge with trough cut for the wedge screw to catch the wedge so you won't loose it (the off side of the screw cut flat for removal ).

  C.M.  what about a set screw in the end of the arbor so you don't need the extra wedges if you file one too much? You can make up for it by a slight turn of the screw. Just a thought.

(See fellers! Here's 3 schools of thought for  wedge fitment .  .  .  .  well 4 if you count the "semi slotted solid" (there ya go!!)  wedge with the wedge screw still acting as a keeper!! All can be tapped in, pushed in or hammered in. Whatever floats the ol boat)

Mike

[greyhawk]

Professor,
Try a punch on the wedge. A needle file in a dremel can make you a pocket for the punch. I know what you mean about breaking springs. Don't know why Pietta thinks they should over hang the end !!?

Greyhawk,
  I like the solid wedge idea. A solid wedge with trough cut for the wedge screw to catch the wedge so you won't loose it (the off side of the screw cut flat for removal ).


Hah! yes Mike I like that ! just a lil short trough for the screw head - still got our solid wedge - half turn of the screw, tap out wedge - tap im back in, half turn of screw - thank ye kindly sir!!!  



 C.M.  what about a set screw in the end of the arbor so you don't need the extra wedges if you file one too much? You can make up for it by a slight turn of the screw. Just a thought.

(See fellers! Here's 3 schools of thought for  wedge fitment .  .  .  .  well 4 if you count the "semi slotted solid" (there ya go!!)  wedge with the wedge screw still acting as a keeper!! All can be tapped in, pushed in or hammered in. Whatever floats the ol boat)

Mike

[Coffinmaker]

45 Dragoon,

I really don't know that many home bodies whom have a handy "Line Boring" machine or Specialized drill press set up to bore the center of the Arbor.  Try to keep it simple for simple hand tools.

[greyhawk]

45 Dragoon,

I really don't know that many home bodies whom have a handy "Line Boring" machine or Specialized drill press set up to bore the center of the Arbor.  Try to keep it simple for simple hand tools.

My solid wedge idee is a simple make with hacksaw and file - I started out with a chunk of scrap angle iron - the lil trough Mike suggests for the retainer screw - is some more difficult - could do it with a Dremel and cutting wheel ? not neat but would work OR just make a spare wedge n carry in the tool box.

Drill and tap the arbor for a set screw by hand ? maybe - maybe it gets crooked - proly work both ways - I like the button in end of arbor for arbor adjustment (thats an easy home fix too) so the screw is a no go - I fit the wedge instead .....a few forks in the road here but we end up at the same place - a pistol that goes together nice each time and shoots good.

[45 Dragoon]

Ok,
Here's simple. Remove all parts and mark the center of the arbor. Either with a punch or needle file in a dremel, make a punch mark on your marked center. Chuck the arbor vertically in a good vice. Now would be a good time to check for a loose arbor. Grasp the frame and check for any side to side play. You'd be surprised at how many NEW revolvers have a loose arbor. If it has play, well deal with that later.
  With the appropriate drill for a 1/4" set screw (you can by a drill and tap set at a big box store for maybe 5 bucks) drill, slowly, keeping the drill straight by viewing  alternately from front and side as you slowly drill. Your only going through less than a 1/4" on the end of the Pietta (Uberti's have more meat) arbor  before you get to the wedge slot.  When you get to the slot, the drill will stop (or break if you're drilling fast!) I have a burr bit that I've used for years (meaning it will last for almost ever!!) to continue the hole into the wedge slot for maybe a 1/4". You may find a burr bit/ rough rotary file at Harbour Freight or Northern Tools better ones probably at McMaster Carr. Anyway,  now chamfer the hole (always clean up drilled holes, no burrs allowed!!). Now using the tap in an appropriate handle (you did get one didn't you?!) tap the hole using plenty of oil. Go slow here as well! Digging a broken tap out is not for the faint of heart .  .  .  .  I've been told .  .  .  .  .        
 When finished,  I use a section of cut off Allen wrench in a drill  and sand the end of a set screw flat (you don't want the cone to cut into the wedge, we are making a bearing surface). I use a 1" belt sander but if you don't have one, you may use some course sandpaper on a flat surface to run the set screw over. I polish the surface with some 320 sand paper with some padding under it to help "soften" the edges of the bearing surface.
  Now, degrease the arbor and newly cut threads and install the set screw with a little blue thread locker. When the screw is even with the wedge slot (there can be NONE of the screw protruding from the end of the arbor!!), test fitting can begin.  

 There you have it, an adjustable bearing surface for the wedge. It's much easier to do than it looks written out.  If in doubt, practice on a piece of cheap bar stock from the same box store.

Mike

Food for thought:
The arbor wedge slots on the original pieces I've had the opportunity to inspect had straight cuts front and rear. They all had contact marks  (from wedge placement)  on the left side (off center) of the front section of the slot (so far, they've all been 1860's).
The Uberti's have an angle cut to supposedly contact the wedge fully across the width of the slot. I view this as counter productive as it presents too big of a "point" of contact and will allow loosening in time. On the other hand, the Piettas seem to cut the slot from both sides, leaving a smaller remnant for the contact point. Smart. From my own observations and my understanding of this "triangulation" setup for a tensioned union, I see no reason that the "adjustable bearing" described above would not give an appropriate surface for the intended purpose. Therefore, that's why I do it. It allows one to position the wedge placement anywhere they choose and gives the "tuner" the ability to fine tune the arbor length for a targeted bbl/cyl clearance (by dressing the arbor end as needed which opens the wedge slot)  without the need for oversized wedges/single use (read ooops too small) wedges.

[45 Dragoon]

If in the above procedure you discovered your arbor is loose, here's how you fix it.
With all parts removed, locate the staking pin usually between 12 and 2 o'clock looking at the rear end of the arbor (in the hammer slot). Drill out the pin which will allow you to easily remove the arbor.

 Note: if you used a slightly smaller drill bit than the pin, the pin will probably free itself and spin with the bit which will easily come out with the bit. If a slightly larger bit is used and an oversized hole is now in place of, no big deal. You'll need to fashion a new pin either way. Some will say to use the drill bit stock and that is an option but, it's a b@#ch to drill out!! I use mild steel rod  or a nail to make a pin that will "upset and fill in" to lock the reinstalled arbor. (You can also tap the hole and install a set screw if you'd rather)

With arbor removed, lightly upset the shoulder of the rear of the arbor (using a small hammer) to create an interference fit when the arbor is reinstalled.  If you just upset in 1 or 2 places, you may misalign the installed arbor making assembly rather difficult.
Install the arbor and use the old staking pin hole as an alignment mark. You may need to use an old wedge in the slot to use as leverage when tightening the arbor. Mount that end in the vice and turn the frame while keeping an eye on the alignment hole. When there, stop don't over tighten you'll upset  your upsetting!!  Ok, check assembly with barrel and wedge. While in hand, insert the new pin and with small hammer (I use an ancient upholstery hammer) drive the pin in. Remove the barrel, place recoil shield on top of the vice and snug the arbor with the vice (just to hold it still). Finish pin install and file smooth if needed.

DONE!!

Mike

[greyhawk]

Ok,



Mike wrote

Food for thought:
From my own observations and my understanding of this "triangulation" setup for a tensioned union, I see no reason that the "adjustable bearing" described above would not give an appropriate surface for the intended purpose. Therefore, that's why I do it. It allows one to position the wedge placement anywhere they choose and gives the "tuner" the ability to fine tune the arbor length for a targeted bbl/cyl clearance (by dressing the arbor end as needed which opens the wedge slot)  without the need for oversized wedges/single use (read ooops too small) wedges.

Mike -- just to clarify ? you refer dressing the arbor - that assumes it is too long ? ie no clearance ..... I have only had maybe a dozen colt clones up close to dismantle but they all had too much (or at least plenty) clearance so needed arbour built up - how do you handle that and still keep your wedge adjuster screw in the setup. ?
greyhawk

[45 Dragoon]

Greyhawk,

 I fix the short arbor situation by "filling in" the arbor hole.with steel shims and steel impregnated and enriched (JB Weld with extra steel to eliminate compression).  This way, I can take up the clearance to within  + .004"-.006"  easily and then dressing the end of the arbor to .0025"-.003". This method takes away the need to be so exact with the shims and allows a little "over fill". Then, a controlled dressing of the arbor allows you to more easily hone in on your desired spec. But, dressing the end of the arbor elongates the wedge slot making your wedge too small for the now wider slot. The adjustable bearing solves the problem and as stated before allows the  wedge location to be set by the user.  i.e. if the wedge is just through the slot as in a " new" condition, it may interfere with re-holstering. You can adjust that to allow more wedge insertion to remove the interference.

Mike

[greyhawk]

Greyhawk,

  I fix the short arbor situation by "filling in" the arbor hole.with steel shims and steel impregnated and enriched (JB Weld with extra steel to eliminate compression).  This way, I can take up the clearance to within  .004"-.006"  easily and then dressing the end of the arbor to .0025"-.003". This method takes away the need to be so exact with the shims and allows a little "over fill". Then, a controlled dressing of the arbor allows you to more easily hone in on your desired spec. But, dressing the end of the arbor elongates the wedge slot making your wedge too small for the now wider slot. The adjustable bearing solves the problem and as stated before allows the  wedge location to be set by the user.  i.e. if the wedge is just through the slot as in a " new" condition, it may interfere with re-holstering. You can adjust that to allow more wedge insertion to remove the interference.

Mike

thanks

[Professor Marvel]

Thank you gentlemen.
We now have several avenues to explore, and clear understanding of which side of the wedge to butcher molest adress

yhs
prof marvel

[Coffinmaker]

Wa Wa What??      I think I've just been dismissed   

[greyhawk]

Wa Wa What??      I think I've just been dismissed   

Nope ! youse not fired yet .
Just for fun do ya got any tricks fer gettin an old tired barrel shooting better
We rabarreled sons 73, now I gone an unearthed another 92 carcase minus barl - that 38/40 tube from the 73 was almost doinn ok - its rough inside - slugs out neat at .401 - crown is suspect and no rifling right at the muzzle - I will cut a half inch off and recrown it - and I have cleaned up several barrels using brasso and a tight steel wool brush - is there a better way??                                             its an easy fit to a 92 action (done that before wid a 44/40) an if I get it built nice can always get a new tube but there is a chance this one can be made work.
cheers  greyhawk

[Coffinmaker]

Ah weell,

Your already headed in the right directions about "to do" with that "rough" barrel.  My usual solution to a clapped out barrel is to have it relined.  Failing that, I go to Green Mountain for anew one and consider that I have a real different looking Tomato Stake.  Only real question is where and how tight the barrel wedge goes??