"Best" recommended Hamerless for CAS?

[frimath]

I have a beautiful Rossi coach gun with mule eared hammers but its a bit slow for the game. I also have a hammerless that I've used for several years that I just cant find anyone that can loosen the mechanism up so that it stays open far enough without interfering in the shell shucking/removal. It seems to close up just enough to prevent the shells from coming out under a timed scenario. SO........ I figure instead of continuing to bang my head against the wall I would learn from this forum and look to see what the recommended tool for the job is and then just go out and get one. After reading the offerings here its pretty apparent to me that some SxS just are NOT the kind that can be slicked up for this game. Many thanks in advance for the recommendations.

P.S. I really don't like the Stoeger guns........hope they aren't the ones "everyone is using" !

[Abilene]

Is the hammerless that you have which won't stay open, a Baikal?  Those can be slicked up and the cocking ears replaced or modified so it stays open.  And it would be a good shotgun after that.  The "top" guys shooting hammerless are mostly using SKB or Browning BSS shotguns.  These are very pricey and need work as well.  Cimarron's Daudson shotguns are said to be similar in function to the SKB, but those will also need a good gunsmith.

[Coffinmaker]

Pardon Me Sire (Said the Messenger) but I am the Harbinger of Ill tidings (bringer of bad news) Spare me if you will .........

When you discuss hammerless ...... Stoeger is THE most used S X S in CAS.  Reasonably priced, Reasonably robust, easy to tune if you feel like it.  Quite reliable.  Find one with two triggers.  You can get into a serviceable Stoeger under $600 bucks.

Then you jump to the the Hi Priced Spread.  You'll lay out about a grand for anything else worth having.  Then you'll lay out between $300 and $500 to set them up for CAS.  Easily spend $1400 to $1500.

How much you want to spend???  Think about it.  $1400 to $1500 for a single use shotgun.  Or, swallow and go get a Stoeger.

[frimath]

It's a "Churchill". Model but I think it's a Spanish manufacture. I've had 3 pretty proficient smiths work on it but without the needed results. They were all too " afraid" to take some spring or springs down " too far"....     

[Major 2]

The SXS Shotgun seems to be have been the  bastard step child in CAS....

Players will spare no expense it seems , tuning or having their rifle raced and the revolvers tuned...but the 3rd gun in the quiver often was a DIY , buff & polish and a spring bob of sorts.

Reason I suppose, is A .  Stoegers , Baikal's etc.  were  1/2 to 3/4 the cost of the rifle.  B. plentiful old Grade , double box lock SXS to
use...I:E:  Fox 311's , Foremost , Stevens , old Ithaca's in almost every closet....
So many were pressed in to CAS use.

The Gamers embraced the 97 pump. 1897 is past the golden era of the "OLD" west but fairly it is under the 1898 CAS cut off date.
So perfectly approved....

But to your, question.... Yes,  Stoeger,  Check out the Deluxe SS model about $600 , there is sweet spring kit available
from Palo Verde  https://pvgunworks.com/product/stoeger-top-lever-spring-kit/
it is the BEE's knees ( I use their Marlin kit to transform my "Fish" lever )....
or this one from  http://www.longhunt.com/storelh/index.php?route=product/product&path=88_95&product_id=238

Personally, I'd like your Old Rossi , because I use a Hammer TTN myself ... exposed hammers just envisions "OLD west to me.
Baikal made a true exposed hammer ( not talking about the cocking lever model)

[Coffinmaker]

He's BAAAAAAACK!!  A return engagement by popular demand!!  Not really.  Just a nuisance on HUMP DAY!!

Mule Ear Rossi Double.  A bit slow for the game.  OK.  That depends entirely on which "end" of the game you think you can play.  If your over 40, over weight but well intentioned, your not going to be snatching the Brass Ring no matter what your equipment.  I'm not trying to be derogatory, just practical.

From the standpoint of a Retired Gunsmith ..... If your "Churchill" is in fact a Spanish made double, and there are no replacement parts and also no "oops" parts, nobody is going to go grinding and modifying without a way to get back to zero if they screw up.  Fact of Life.

Now, even in the world of "FUN" guns, your Rossi is in fact a "bit slow for the game" and actually doesn't tune up very well and in any case, no longer made so there are no replacement nor oops parts available.  If you want to play Real Cowboy with a Hammer Double, the best value for dollar is a Cimarron 1878.  Built like a Tank, tough as nails and parts are available.  Set up for CAS right out of the box.  Then you go up in build quality and Price.  A lot of "up"   Turkish Hammer guns $900 that need work.  Pedersoli Hammer guns at 1400 - 1600 that don't need work.

Doubles run from the very affordable Stoeger up to the 1000 - 1100 dollar plus guns that need work.  There is NO MIDDLE.  Start at affordable and then straight to "Holy KRAP!!"

Sorry Navy 54 ..... We're a Lighthouse ...... Your Call!!

[Scattered Thumbs]

I think that Churchill shotgun is Turkish made by Akkar.

[Baltimore Ed]

I bought my wife a Stoeger coach gun, had the chambers honed and action slicked up so that it will fall open when unlocked, slick as snot. Great double.

[Major 2]

There have been a number of Turkish doubles imported for the WAS/CAS crowd in the past years.

I recall the  Liberty II by CZ  , ADCO , Charles Daly's,  Akkar ( as ST suggested ) HUGLU , and now (beginning in 2016) Tedna
The underlying issue , guns were imported (some short lived imported ) but spare parts were not .
I've only seen the Tedra at Shot Show 2016 , yet to see one in the field.

Coffin maker has mentioned Pedersoli  ( Italy ) nice , V nice ...did I say NICE ! but @ $1500 + nice.

There was the short while imported Polish double , the Pioneer $1300 ... now no longer manufactured ( Company landed a Government contract )

[frimath]

Ouch!

Coffin maker hit it right on the head!!!!! I can't participate in more than a couple of local matches due to local restraints that I won't go into. Looking to avoid the frustration of having the damn barrels snap back up and interfere with the extraction process. I have to look again in regard to any manufacturing markings . I used my coyote cap 1887 for the first time last weekend and it was a blast. As coffinmaker said ( I think it was he) that I'd have to practice with quite a few rounds a week to really " up" my game................. I guess every time I go back and shoot one of these cowboy matches I get all charged up and excited about shooting more and buying more cool and fun things.

[Coffinmaker]

Whoops!!  Whoa!!  Hold it right THERE.

Getting all charged up, and excited about shooting more, and buying more KOOL FUN things is a very rewarding part of the CAS game.  Actually a very NECESSARY part of the CAS game.  We must remember .... one CANNOT have too many TOYS!!  One must however, be judicious when selecting ones toys.  For example(s):

One Pedersoli Hammer Double equals three Cimarron 1878 Hammer Doubles.  So, I have a Pedersoli and Two Cimarron 1878s.  My antique J. P. Sauer Hammer double and my Husqvarna Hammer double just be icing onna cake.

One BSS or SKB equals three Stoeger hammerless doubles.  Perspective is everything.

Another thing to remember when considering the modification of your chosen shotgun .... "Funneling" the barrel breach to speed loading creates a worthless addition to the land fill.  It will only be sellable to another CAS shooter.  Real Shotgunners will realize it has been ruined and won't touch it no matter how cheap or ..... even free.  Careful considerations ..........

Those whom actually snatch the Brass Ring and Win the Big Bag of Marbles don't actually practice a couple of hundred rounds per week.  They practice several THOUSANDs of rounds per week.  They work at it like a JOB.  In many cases (mine) it ceases to be fun and actually becomes like a (cough, choke, barf) Job.  It's suppose to be FUN.  IF YOU CAN'T HAVE FUN .... GO HOME!!!

[Baltimore Ed]

What the heck are you talkin about Coffinmaker? Practice?? I shoot enough to check out my handloads and to check out my match guns functions usually right before a monthly match. And shoot the match of course. I currently am doing 2 a month, a WB and a WASA /sass shoot, weather permitting, about 450 match rds between them. That's about it, it's just boring to shoot by myself. Anytime you want to come by and shoot some come on by. I didn't like to practice the piano either, but I like to play.

[Major 2]

Welp  the best bang for your buck is still the Stoeger

The standard model has fixed chokes, one Improved Cylinder and one Modified, and does not have a recoil pad. Different variations have a hardwood or walnut stock and fore-end, and a blued, matte nickel, or polished nickel receiver and barrels. Most versions have an American style pistol grip stock, but the Coach Gun has also been produced with an English style straight stock.

Supreme has screw-in choke tubes, and is equipped with a recoil pad. It features an AA-grade walnut stock and fore-end. Different versions have blued, nickel-plated, stainless steel receivers and barrels.

manufactured by E.R. Amantino  in Veranópolis, Brazil and imported by Stoeger/Benelli  ( Beretta )

[frimath]

Thank god you guys talked me down off the ledge!!!! PRACTICE!?!?!? I was starting to tell my self YES.....you can do it!!!

Just like the old days  when I would shoot a couple of hundred rounds just b4 the monthly match ........( )..... but watching the of the videos etc out there is just mind boggling just how damn fast some of these guys are! I've always kind of leaned towards the NCOWS crowd in regard to the " purity" of the game. I've even done the Holy Black route because it's always been a crowd pleaser more than a match winner. 

So.....,my " Spanish" made Churchill is really just a very nice KASSNAR !!!! Which I think is in fact a Turkish gun. Above average wood with an integral wooden butt pad/plate that has been nicely checkered. It's a nickel plated ( I think) frame with some engraving work to pretty it up. The barrels are around 20" I believe. But those barrels are awfully springy and just do NOT want to stay open. Not sure if there are any parts out there that I can use to make this work or just go out and get something else.  I need to get more familiar with the models you guys have been discussing , but aren't the 1878 models being discussed also exposed hammers?  My Rossi is a beauty that I had re finished and Case Colored with someone very close to the type currently done by turnbull!  I'll try to post some photos of the two I've been discussing. Just have to figure out how to post photos given my techno challenged skill sets.

[Major 2]

''... aren't the 1878 models being discussed also exposed hammers? "

Indeed they are....

[Tascosa Joe]

A real "Churchill" was a relatively high end English gun.  I am not sure if it was a "Best Gun" or a Birmingham made and finished gun.

[Baltimore Ed]

In my early days of cas my sg was a 150.00 severely cut down 1889 Remington 12 ga hammer gun. Tough to cock!! Wow. Then I moved on to my Marlins until well, you know... Then I tried an 1887 repro, no likey and then my wife's Stoeger until I picked up my missmatched 97. Followed by my Norinco trench gun and my latest is my M12 trench build. Likey M12.
But speaking of high dollar doubles, many shoots ago I watched a newbe cowpoke with an absolutely gorgeous 12 ga European hammer double, don't know the brand, shooting black in brass shells loaded so hot that the forearm solder joint failed due to the excessive recoil. If you want to try a double find an old one, plenty out there. You may or may not be using it 5 years from now. Enjoy the guns, the shoots, the people and when it gets dull challenge yourself with something new.

[Major 2]

Like a Mule Hammer gun 

[Coffinmaker]

Absolutely, just like a Rabbit Ears Gun 

[frimath]

Well do I feel foolish! 

Turns out that my "KASSNAR" does in fact say Made in Spain !!!!  So I'm not sure what that really means to mean and the world of CAS/ SASS but there it "is"!

So after taking a closer look at the Brownings and the Pedersolis and the other shotguns recommended by you guys as well as the   Stoeger, I started looking at the videos out there as well. I found a video that goes through step by step the procedures and modifications recommended to make the Stoeger CAS/SASS shooting friendly.  So.......... I proceeded to take my Kassnar down so I can separate the frame from the stock. I buffed up/polished the contact areas around the frame and the barrels where they contact one another upon opening and closing. I haven't been able to separate the frame from the stock yet in that it is SUPER tight after removal all of the screws.  I figure once I can look at the frame I can figure out how closely my Kassnar is to the Stoeger. If it appears to be the same internals........... then it seems to be a "small" process of reducing the rod that engages the safety ( so that it will be disconnected permanently) and thereafter removing and reducing the spring by a coil or two in order to enable the barrels to stay down when opened. My gunsmith has the honing gizmos that appear in the video so I have that covered but honestly I like the recommendation of just wrapping spent shell hulls with 400-then-600 grit paper until the chambers are suitably polished and slick enough to eject the fired hulls..............

My primary focus is on the reduction of the spring that prevents the barrels from staying all the way open. I figure so long as I reduce a coil "one at a time" and test it out I should be okay to get this Kassnar properly modified and suitable for CAS/SASS competition!