It's OD #3's Fault > Annealing Cases

[Coffinmaker]

Awright OD ..... It's your fault.  Fess up and take yer medicine Bub!!

Some lustrum ago I built myself a super trix 1866 Trapper Rifle.  I don't care for Carbines in '73s or '66s, so I built it out of a 24 inch barrel 44 Special Octagonal Barrel Rifle.  Before I checked the chamber (Dumb Gunplumber).  OD and I could walk hand in hand through the chamber with a cartridge already innit.  Blow-By is horrendous.  

To have a functional 16" Rifle, It had to be modified to run 44 Russian cases.  Blow-By is horrendous.  At the time I was shooting that heathen fad smokeless stuff and the rifle ran fine for 10 stages but needed immediate cleaning.  Then I saw the light.  I threw off the yoke of that heathen fad stuff and went to the Dark Side.  Did I mention Blow-By is horrendous??  With BP or Subs, the chamber fouls out after 4 rounds.  Won't extract/eject.  Tried heavy bullets, Heavy crimp, Heavy load, all lf the above.  No joy.  Stuck the gun back inna safe for those days when I don't wanna clean a gun "right now."  Never gave annealing cases a second thought.  I'm lazy ... remember.  Except:

Now, OD has got me thinking (oh the PAIN).  Annealing 44 Russian cases just might stop up that huge chamber and allow the rifle to run BP and Subs without fouling out in 4 rounds.  Now, I have to figure a quick, easy and CHEAP method for annealing a batch of cases to see if it will work.

It's ALL YOUR FAULT OD.

Coffinmaker

PS:  I'm still gonna run 44-40 cases in my 45 Henry!!  Nanny Nanny Poo Poo!!

[OD#3]

I always enjoy reading your posts.  I'm tempted to post something on Youtube about how I anneal.  But the concept is very easy and CHEAP!

Step 1.... Select an appropriately-sized socket from a socket wrench set.  The inside diameter of the socket has to be slightly larger than the rim of the cartridge case--enough for the case to slip into and out of the socket by its own weight.  

Step 2.... Stick a bolt down into the socket so that the tail of the bolt protrudes out of the hole in the bottom.  Secure it with a nut.  I have several of these set up for the different cases I anneal.  In addition to diameter, depth is important too; you want plenty of case neck protruding from the socket, but you want the case to be well-supported in the socket as well.  You have now made a cartridge case  spinner.

Step 3.... Chuck the bolt tail into a portable drill, stick a bucket of water at your feet, and fire up the cheap propane torch (the kind you get a Walmart for 20 bucks or so).

Step 4.... Insert a cartridge case (head-down) into the socket, and spin the whole affair by squeezing the trigger on the drill.  Even though the case head is a very loose fit in the socket, the minimal contact it makes with the spinning socket will cause it to spin as well.  

Step 5.... Hold the now spinning case neck into the propane flame.  In about 6 seconds, the case mouth will probably be starting to glow a little.  You'll have over-annealed the case as far as benchrest shooters are concerned, but we don't care about that--you'll have gotten it nice and soft for preventing blowby, and it will be evenly annealed, because it was spinning in the flame.

Step 6.... Point the whole affair down towards the bucket of water at your feet, and the case will fall right out into the bucket and get quenched before the heat has had a chance to get conducted into the case head.  Remember, brass doesn't quench-harden, so your brass case necks will remain nice and soft.  Some folks skip the quench part, but I wouldn't--especially with short cases like the .44 Russian.

Repeat steps 4-6 ......a bunch of times.  You're going to be so happy with the results, you might even run a few .45 Colt cases through your rifles again.

 

[Coal Creek Griff]

I've used a similar method for some time.  It works so well at keeping the gun and brass clean that I've begun using it for nearly all of my lower pressure chamberings.  Everything stays nice and clean with fewer split case mouths!

CC Griff

[OD#3]

Feel the peer pressure yet, Coffinmaker?  C'mon, man, everyone's doing it.  .44 Russian is just the beginning.  That .45 Colt brass is calling to you.  Give in.....  Just do it....  You know you want to....   

[Coffinmaker]

Awright awready!!  I give!!  Ollie Ollie Oxen Free!!

After perusing OD's neatly written instructions, it became oblivious to me, I already have all the necessary tools in my tool box.  Bolts and nuts too.  Cordless drill motor (1/2 inch persuasion).  All I need acquire (first of the month retirement cheque) is one of them swell small propane bottles and I'm in business.

I figure to anneal probably 20 sample examples, stuff em with Powder and Ball and head for the range.  That will be next week some time before I can report back the results of my investigation.  Since I'd really like to be able to run my Trapper with BP or Subs rather than that heathen fad stuff, Annealing seems (seams??) my only option left.  I've tried everything else. 

I will with due diligence, report back my findings fourth with.  Or is it with Fourth.  Or .... no .... It's after the Fourth.  And .. May The Fourth be With You!!

Coffinmaker

[wildman1]

Been doin it that way for a while usually takes 2-3 seconds before the dump in the bucket. Do it in the garage no lights except the torch when it starts to turn red ya dump.
wM1

[greyhawk]

Awright OD ..... It's your fault.  Fess up and take yer medicine Bub!!

Some lustrum ago I built myself a super trix 1866 Trapper Rifle.  I don't care for Carbines in '73s or '66s, so I built it out of a 24 inch barrel 44 Special Octagonal Barrel Rifle.  Before I checked the chamber (Dumb Gunplumber).  OD and I could walk hand in hand through the chamber with a cartridge already innit.  Blow-By is horrendous.  

To have a functional 16" Rifle, It had to be modified to run 44 Russian cases.  Blow-By is horrendous.  At the time I was shooting that heathen fad smokeless stuff and the rifle ran fine for 10 stages but needed immediate cleaning.  Then I saw the light.  I threw off the yoke of that heathen fad stuff and went to the Dark Side.  Did I mention Blow-By is horrendous??  With BP or Subs, the chamber fouls out after 4 rounds.  Won't extract/eject.  Tried heavy bullets, Heavy crimp, Heavy load, all lf the above.  No joy.  Stuck the gun back inna safe for those days when I don't wanna clean a gun "right now."  Never gave annealing cases a second thought.  I'm lazy ... remember.  Except:

Now, OD has got me thinking (oh the PAIN).  Annealing 44 Russian cases just might stop up that huge chamber and allow the rifle to run BP and Subs without fouling out in 4 rounds.  Now, I have to figure a quick, easy and CHEAP method for annealing a batch of cases to see if it will work.

It's ALL YOUR FAULT OD.

Coffinmaker

PS:  I'm still gonna run 44-40 cases in my 45 Henry!!  Nanny Nanny Poo Poo!!

why doncha put a 44/40 chamber in it - all yr problems will go away

[OD#3]

Because .44-40 is too long.  The idea was to have a cartridge case with dimensions very close to that of the .44 rimfire.

[greyhawk]

Because .44-40 is too long.  The idea was to have a cartridge case with dimensions very close to that of the .44 rimfire.

hmmm just thinkin to save that barl - its already cut to length so ya cant rechamber n reset it ? 44/40 diameter would cut out that sloppy chamber -- could shorten them cases up by trimming ? PITA but only gotta do it once - ya can take two tenths off a 44/40 and they still thin enough to use - but guess we dont want a 44/40short special wildcat! -- anneal might get around it some but dont fix the sloppy chamber job ? this is the sorta stuff we haveta do in Aus  because of our stoopid gun rules - you probably better off buyin a new barl and start over. Have annealed a lotta cases for fireforming (45/75 - 303/25 and others) stand em in water - go easy with an oxy flame - (a propane torch should do it but I like a small tip on the oxy ya can put the heat where ya want it) - tip em over in the water to quench - dont take long to do a couple hundred and they stay soft for a lot of reloads - you loose an odd one if your attention wanders. 

[OD#3]

Are you suggesting that he just run some .44-40 brass through his .44 Russian sizer die and then trim to .44 Russian length?  I wonder if the rim diameter differences between the two matter enough?  .525 vs. .515 doesn't seem like too much of a difference, and Coffinmaker already runs .44-40 brass in his .45 Colts for a difference of .525 vs. 512.  Could be doable.  But annealing is much easier than trimming, and Coffinmaker is, by his own admission, a bit lazy.

[greyhawk]

Are you suggesting that he just run some .44-40 brass through his .44 Russian sizer die and then trim to .44 Russian length?  I wonder if the rim diameter differences between the two matter enough?  .525 vs. .515 doesn't seem like too much of a difference, and Coffinmaker already runs .44-40 brass in his .45 Colts for a difference of .525 vs. 512.  Could be doable.  But annealing is much easier than trimming, and Coffinmaker is, by his own admission, a bit lazy.

No - he told us the chamber was super sloppy - think he said somethin like you could walk down the chamber with a shell in there - so if thats a real problem - then the 44/40 bein bigger diameter would cut out the sloppy 44 chamber ? (maybe he exagggggggeerrated the problem?) If this is just a simple blowby issue that annealing can fix ......well .... set um up in baking dish of water and have at it with a blowtorch wont take very long  .... the other method spinning em in a drill one by one would work - just slower  - a bit too technical for me.   

[Coffinmaker]

Greyhawk,
Your missing some key points.  First, I screwed up.  Normally when I begin a project for myself or for a valued customer (One who pays on time), I first check ALL the dimensions to insure success.  In this project I failed to do that (OOPS).  It never occurred to me I had a chamber like a Fire Hose.

I cut the rifle to a 16 Inch Barrel.  At 16 inches, the magazine will not contain 10 full length cartridges (44 Special) and at the same time, I did wish to emulate 44 Henry Flat.  Set the rifle up for 44 Russian.  With smokeless, it works a treat tho a mite dirty.  SO:

When I made the switch to BP and Subs, the huge chamber reared it's ugly head.  Because of the above parameters, messing with any kind of 44-40 case is a non-player.  Regardless of wildcatting, the 44-40 case would wind up way too long.  No Joy. 

I've never been a proponent to Annealing.  I've simply never needed to.  When ever I built guns for my valued customers (yep, those guys and gals who paid their bills), the guns were built and chambered to correct dimensions.  If said customer decided to mess with their cases, that was their never mind.  Same same my guns.  Correct chamber dimensions, correct throats, add nauseam.  I never had a need to anneal cases.  Never had Blow-By in one of my 45s bad enough to fret over.  Now, however, I'm stuck with this stupid Trapper that won't digest BP or Subs and it's all MY FAULT!!  Annoying .. that.  SO:

Shamed by OD#3, I am reduced to resorting to a procedure I have in the past shunned.  I do this in the hopes I can resurrect my OOPS Rifle and run it with BP and Subs.  Otherwise it gets stuck in the back of the safe and only used on occasional Pissy Weather days (I shoot Cap Guns for CAS) when I resort to that Heathen Fad stuff. (Snort Snort Snorkel Snorkel .. Gag)

Coffinmaker

PS:  Thanks however, for the good thoughts.

[greyhawk]

Greyhawk,
Your missing some key points.  First, I screwed up.  Normally when I begin a project for myself or for a valued customer (One who pays on time), I first check ALL the dimensions to insure success.  In this project I failed to do that (OOPS).  It never occurred to me I had a chamber like a Fire Hose.

Well I didnt wanna SAY he screwed up  did you cut the chamber or buy it in?

I cut the rifle to a 16 Inch Barrel.  At 16 inches, the magazine will not contain 10 full length cartridges (44 Special) and at the same time, I did wish to emulate 44 Henry Flat.  Set the rifle up for 44 Russian. 

Yeah 9 goes in 16 inches - ya can dicker with mag springs and what all and then 9 and 3/4 goes in - shorten the plug and spring and follower - maybe - but I still bet on 9 not 10

With smokeless, it works a treat tho a mite dirty.  SO:

When I made the switch to BP and Subs, the huge chamber reared it's ugly head.  Because of the above parameters, messing with any kind of 44-40 case is a non-player.  Regardless of wildcatting, the 44-40 case would wind up way too long.  No Joy. 

saw it off mate! - still too long huh? - I looked - I reckon yo can chop a 44/40 back to an inch long case before it gets too thick 

I've never been a proponent to Annealing.  I've simply never needed to. 

I needed to ! Form 45/75 cases from .348 is impossible without annealing - same for the 303 brit down to 25 cal - started many moons ago with WW brass in a 22/250 - really stiff necks that almost broke my little press - every other brand case was ok but man that WW stuff was hard.

When ever I built guns for my valued customers (yep, those guys and gals who paid their bills), the guns were built and chambered to correct dimensions.  If said customer decided to mess with their cases, that was their never mind.  Same same my guns.  Correct chamber dimensions, correct throats, add nauseam.  I never had a need to anneal cases.  Never had Blow-By in one of my 45s bad enough to fret over.  Now, however, I'm stuck with this stupid Trapper that won't digest BP or Subs and it's all MY FAULT!!  Annoying .. that.  SO:

Shamed by OD#3, I am reduced to resorting to a procedure I have in the past shunned.  I do this in the hopes I can resurrect my OOPS Rifle and run it with BP and Subs. 

So what is this previouslu shunned procedure ? sounds interesting.
cheers
Greyhawk

Otherwise it gets stuck in the back of the safe and only used on occasional Pissy Weather days (I shoot Cap Guns for CAS) when I resort to that Heathen Fad stuff. (Snort Snort Snorkel Snorkel .. Gag)

Coffinmaker

PS:  Thanks however, for the good thoughts.

[Coffinmaker]

Hey KIDS!!!!  IT'S HOWDY DOODY TIME!!!  How many youz remembers Howdy Doody -n- Cap'n Kangaroo -n- Andy's Gang..... Plunk your magic twanger Froogy!!  And Saturday Morning cartoons that were real cartoons.  Oh well ..........

We're talking "projects" here.  Yesterday and Today were really ...... rewarding ....  Sort of.  Yesterday was suppose to be a Match day that didn't quite go that way.  I digress.  Yesterday and Today were my initial forays into the magic and mystical realm of Annealing.  After gathering all my bits and pieces .... it was time.  Oh Brother ...

There I was.  In the dark (I turn'd off the lights), alone .. Unwanted .. Bent over my work place with blazing Torch and a box of brass (several boxes), happily counting off the seconds in the flame.

I.   WAS.   RIGHT!!  Annealing is dull, boring, skull numbing drudgery!!   UNTILL ....  Didja know you can find that primed case you dropped and couldn't locate in the dust bunnies when your annealing??
Yep.  Found it.  Trudging along, minding my own business and .... BANG .... that case took off across the garage almost as fast as I blew that hole in the cloth seat to my stool.  I just gotta talk to NASA.  I really need one of those blast deflectors they put under rockets to protect the launch pad.  Something I can carry around with my NEW stool.  Discovery number two.  Might consider depriming the cases your going to anneal.  Some of my cases have been in the "ready to load" bins for a Lustrum or two.  Rest assured, as soon as the second ..... BANG ...... I took the rest back to the loading press and de-capped em.  Wasn't near as bad.  Already had the hole in my stool.  Humpff.

Inna future, I think I do about a hunnert atta time.  Maybe with some tunes.  Na.  No tunes.. that'd interrupt my count .... one thousand - two thousand - three thousand - Oh but I never wanna think that again.  But, I have about 8,000 cases to go.  Oh woe is me.

After I get em out of the oven (I bake my cases to dry em) I can fill em wid powder and shot.  Then, nest day or so I'll pedal out to the range and see if I'm really gonna anneal any more.

Well .... also I gotta see the results inna rifle too.  If I wind up with a stone clean Carrier Block, I'm gonna go KISS OD#3.  Provided of course he shaves REAL close.

Coffinmaker

[Coffinmaker]

Well, if you've been following this thread, it is/was finally RANGE DAY.  'Ol Mom Nature finally shut of the Monsoon long enough for me to get out to the range and test out this taunted Annealing Stuff.  Harumpff.  Put up or shut up says I.

Harkening back, you ay remember I built a snazzy 44 Trapper.  Wouldn't run with BP or Subs.  Fouled out in 3 to 5 rounds.  So I first annealed a pile of 44 Russian cases, powder to the base of a 160Gr RNFP.  Loaded the rifle and proceeded carefully, waiting for the rifle to foul out.  It didn't.  I suddenly noticed the fired cases on the table were ...... clean.  Inspected the Carrier Block and found it also .. CLEAN.  I mean 44-40 clean.  Spotless.  So dis-believing, I loaded the rifle back up and ran it as fast as I can (10 rounds on a target, 2.46 seconds) and it didn't hiccup.  Cases again were squeaky clean as was/is the Carrier Block.  I were Gasterfalbbed.  Cleaning this rifle will be a snap.  Chamber fired case, Swab out the bore, drop of oil on the carrier, done.  NO TEARDOWN.  I are tickled.

Next up is a short case modified Henry Carbine.  This rifle won't hold 10 full length 45s.  9.  that's it .. just 9, so I shoot it with 45 Schofield cases with a 200Gr RNFP.  Schofield won't cycle with a shorter bullet.  I annealed a pile of Schofield cases.  Loaded with about the same charge of APP as the Russian and topped with Cream-0-Wheat (smells like breakfast).  Loaded up 10 and let er rip.  Same dam'd result.  Cases came out squeaky clean as did the Carrier Block.  We're talking 44-40 clean here folks.  Like .. uh .. SPOTLESS.  CLEANING THIS RIFLE WILL BE THE SAME AS THE 44!!  Fired case inna chamber, swab the bore, drop of oil .. done.  NO TEARDOWN.

Then I compared my "Control."  44-40 case run thru 45 dies and loaded as a 45.  I have another Henry that will hold 10 full length cartridges.  These hummers look a little funny until run through the gun but it really does work.  Came out of the rifle squeaky clean (as known they would).  The 44-40 cases were loaded with the same powder charge as the 44s and the 45 Schofield then topped with Cream-0-Wheat.

The RESULTS:  The annealed cases sealed the chambers completely.  The annealed cases DID NOT attenuate (reduce) the Blow-By.  They (the annealed cases) eliminated the Blow-By completely.  ZERO.  NONE.  NADA.  ZIPPO (wait, that's a lighter)  ZIP.  So Here's yer sign.  If you have a Blow-By problem in a straight wall case rifle (regardless of caliber), annealing your cases will eliminate it.  It takes a little time but it IS time well spent.  Especially in time saved tearing down and cleaning your rifle.

OD#3 best shave real close.  Cause I'm gonna give him a smooch for shoving me offa fence.  Annealing really works.  It's not all that hard to do (even an old guy like me) and it pays big dividends.

Coffinmaker

PS:  And, this has saved one of my favorite little custom rifles from the scrap heap.  Believe it.

PSS:  I have a Henry Trapper (16 Inch Barrel) and an 1873 Trapper (16 Inch Barrel) that require Cowboy 45 Special or 45 Squirt cases to run 10.  I'll be annealing she of those little short cases next.  Also gonna try annealing some Nickel'd cases.

PSSS:  OD!!  YOu've created a MONSTER!!  Next I'll be annealing my Stainless Starbucks Cof ........ no I won;t 

[Coal Creek Griff]

As I mentioned before, I've been using this method for some time and I'm a believer. I anneal all of my lower pressure cases, yes including 44-40.  It even makes them cleaner.

A new convert!

CC Griff

[Coffinmaker]

CCG ......

Absolutely.  Monsoon has returned.  Raining like a cow peein onna flat rock.  I will be off to the local emporium of hardware to acquire several more tanks of the appropriate flammable gas.  Next few days will be spent inna garage, in the dark, alone, ignore'd and bored to death.  It is some boring.  It is some worth it.

The cartridges I use in my 45 rifles will be spending some quality time in front of the torch.  I've never had reason to anneal in the past.  Didn't need to extend the case life.  Had thousands.  Now however, I've been able to resurrect a derelict rifle and shoot sever others and have them come out super clean.  Yep.  A Convert.

Now to figure out how long I can run annealed cases before I have to anneal em again.  Or, just shot em till they split??

Coffinmaker

[OD#3]

Although I've posted some on annealing, it has only been of late that I've done much advocating for it, and that only because I was getting tired of folks on here treating the .45 Colt case like it was something one had to settle for if he was too unfortunate to find something in .44-40.  I was even starting to doubt myself there for a bit, wondering if those squeaky clean cases that ejected out of my rifles only APPEARED to be clean, because I've never tried .44-40, and most "experts" asserted that annealing only LESSENED blowby in the .45 Colt.  And I was a little nervous about Coffinmaker's foray into annealing. Would it really work for him, or would he be like that friend who never saw Star Wars?  'Cause those guys, after finally viewing the movie, rarely conclude that I was a precocious 7 year old when I asserted it to be the greatest movie ever made.

So it is with great satisfaction and vicarious excitement that I hear of your success!  The Force will be with you, always...

Having achieved such success myself with annealing, I never pushed my luck to see how many firings it would take before cases started to succumb to the dark side again, so I've just been annealing every time as part of my .45 Colt case prep.  I suspect that cases would start to show blowby again long before they were in any danger of splitting, but something tells me that my "expertise" in this area will very soon have to take a back seat to your own future discoveries. 

I've still been tempted to try out your .44-40 case trick.  The only thing that has stopped me thus far is the desire NOT to get brass mixed up, since I've collected a couple hundred .44-40 cases over the years in anticipation that I might someday acquire something in that caliber.  But I feel like I owe you that satisfaction now, since you tried annealing and found it not to be REALLY AS BLACK AS THEY PAINT...

[Coffinmaker]

In all fairness, I have yet to anneal a 45 Colt case.  "I never said I didn't know how to use one" (Purloined famous movie line).  I just don't currently use 45 Colt cases.  For anything.  I used 44-40-45s if I needed a full length 45 Case.  Other custom built rifles called for 45 Schofield or C45S or 45 Squirt.  Or even in the case of my 44 Trapper, 44 Russian.  To date, I have successfully annealed 45 Schofield and 44 Russian.  With complete success.  Neither the 45 Schofield nor the 44 Russian show any sign of Blow-By.  NONE.  I'd call that acceptable results.  I am more than tickled I have been able to resurrect my 44 Trapper.  Super Pleased.

My next foray will be Cowboy 45 Special and 45 Squirt.  If I can get those two cartridges to run clean in 45 Colt chambers I will be just Gob Smacked.  Being able to run 45s with clean cases and Carrier Blocks will be an incredible treat as opposed to constant attention during a match and marathon cleaning sessions after a match.

I spent many years labeled "Does not play well with Others"  "Others don't like to Lose"   There are a lot of others out there who only do something half assed.  If you anneal cases in the same manner with the same limitations as a Bench Rest Rifle shooter, your results may be less than spectacular.  If on the other hand, you toast them suckers a nice shade of orange or red and make em dead soft, Blow-By will be a distant memory.  You also have to be a bit more careful running em thru a progressive press.  They crush easy (Don't ask how I know this fact).  Additionally, I am NOT running any of my test ammunition with large charges of propellant.  They are all reduced loads with APP 3F topped with Cream-0-Wheat and light bullets.

So here be bottom line.  If you want to go out and play CAS with a 45.  You damn well can.  It will cost you about $7 in "tools" and some gas with a torch accessory and some time.  It will also help if you are able to swipe your kids little metal beach pail for cooling yer cases.  You can play CAS without Blow-By in straight wall cases.

And for my success I assess all the blame on OD#3.  Shoved me right over the edge he did.  His fault.  Completely.  THANK YOU!!

Coffinmaker

[wool]

I have been tempted to modify the carrier in my 45 colt 1860 Henry to allow the use of 45 Schofield or even 45 CS loads but have had concerns about the build up of carbon/lead deposits in the forward section of the chamber. Is this likely to be a problem?