Open Tops vs Richards

Tuolumne Lawman · May 20, 2017, 11:10:34 PM

I was fortunate enough to get a pair of author sample ASM .44 Colt conversions when they came out around 2000 or so. I loved them, but one had a periodic timing issue (not uncommon with ASMs). They were graceful, and closer to originals than the later Uberti versions - except no stepped cylinder.

Alas, they went the way of most author samples, on to the next evaluator. Since then I have had both Uberti Conversions and Open Tops in the mid-2000s. I think that the Type I Richards, with the 1860 barrel configuration are the coolest of the breed as far as looks. .44 Colt/.44 Ruussian/.44 Special makes them versatile as far as loads go. The Open tops, however, are the real charmers...

The 1872 Open Top, at least to me, is graceful and sleek, points nimbly and true, and tend to shoot horizontally in line with the POA, since the front and rear sights are on the barrel. For the Henry or 1866 shooter, they are a natural since in reality, both the rifle and pistol used the same ammo. Having both in .45 allows me to use my 200 grain Schofield load, duplicating the .44 Flat rimfire. If I was a lawman back then in the 1860s (as I was in real life now), I would have had a Henry rifle without a doubt. When the 1872 Open Top hit the market, I would have bought a brace of them to go with my Henry.

The .44 Henry Flat rimfire , with its 200 grain bullet pushed by 28 grains of powder, gave about 1150 fps from the rifle and 800 or so fps from a pistol. An 1872 revolver would give about the same energy as a standard velocity factory 44 Special today (about 300 ft lbs). From the rifle, it gave about 600 ft lbs at the muzzle and around 425 ft lbs at 100 yards. Even at 100 yards from the rifle, it gave more ME than a 200 grain .45 ACP at the muzzle. People hunt deer and pigs with Marlin .357 mag Marlins, and they are about the same as the Henry in terminal performance.

The .44 rimfire was not a powerhouse, but it was no slacker either. In a revolver, it duplicated or bettered the contemporary .44 Martin (Colt or Remington) cartridge in a pistol, and was more potent than the other .44s - the .44 Russian &.44 American. It even gave the .45 Schofield a run for its money. The well regarded Remington .46 French rimfire (for their first cartridge conversion of the Army Models), had a 227 grain, .456" diameter bullet, powered by only 20 grains BP, 30% less powder than the .44 Henry

Yep, if I was an 1870 Lawman, I would have felt well heeled with a pair of Open Tops and a Henry. I would head out into the Sierras with a couple hundred rounds in my saddle bags, and never feel out-gunned.

Abilene · May 20, 2017, 11:36:51 PM

Quote from: Tuolumne Lawman on May 20, 2017, 11:10:34 PM
... I think that the Type I Richards, with the 1860 barrel configuration are the coolest of the breed as far as looks. .44 Colt/.44 Ruussian/.44 Special makes them versatile as far as loads go. The Open tops, however, are the real charmers.....

The ASM .44's were .44 Colt only, no Special or Russian.

Tuolumne Lawman · May 21, 2017, 12:33:42 AM

Quote from: Abilene on May 20, 2017, 11:36:51 PM
The ASM .44's were .44 Colt only, no Special or Russian.

True...ASMs are long gone. There cylinders were close to original dimensions, and only the 44 Colt rims would fit. I got some of the first batch of Black hills .44 Colt ammo from Jeff Hoffman when the ASMs came out. I was speaking of the Uberti Type I and transitional Richards and Richards-Masons being able to take all three. Only Cimarron offers the conversions in .44 now. Taylor's just has .38 and .45.

nativeshootist · May 21, 2017, 02:08:59 AM

One day I'll have a Richard's "Transition" model in my hands

Abilene · May 21, 2017, 07:55:18 AM

Well, one more clarification then, Uberti has never made a Type I Richards.

Tuolumne Lawman · May 21, 2017, 08:53:21 AM

Quote from: Abilene on May 21, 2017, 07:55:18 AM
Well, one more clarification then, Uberti has never made a Type I Richards.

My Mistake, I thought the type I is the one with 1860 barrel assembly, and Type II the kind with the S barrel like the Open Top.

Tuolumne Lawman · May 21, 2017, 09:06:01 AM

I really need to get out my McDowell book and read the chapters about the Richards and R-M conversions again. Last time I red those chapters was about 15 years ago when I was writing an article. I did just re-read the Open Top and Remington Conversion chapters earlier this year.

Edit: Quick review of McDowell, Type I has breech ring with notch sight at top, and ring mounted firing pin - with 1860 barrel. Type II has hammer mounted firing pin and hammer notch sight, with 1860 barrel, and Richards-Mason has S contour barrel like open Top, and hammer mounted firing pin and sight notch. I know there are variations,, but I think that's the gist of it.

The ASMs were type I with the breach mounted sight. By the way, there are a nice boxed ASM .44 and bowed .38 conversions on Gunbroker. If it weren't for parts availability, I'd grab the .44. Well, that and the fact I just finished acquiring a second set of match guns in 44-40: a Rossi 92 and two Uberti SAA, one being a Thunderer.

Graveyard Jack · May 23, 2017, 12:06:02 PM

I think the Richards Type I, followed closely by the Type II are the most graceful and best looking but the Open Top is the most refined and practical. With the Richards-Mason falling somewhere in the middle.

Major 2 · May 24, 2017, 05:47:43 AM

Quote from: Abilene on May 21, 2017, 07:55:18 AM
Well, one more clarification then, Uberti has never made a Type I Richards.

I think Mike Harvey , might have approached the IDEA with Uberti, which became the Type II , perhaps for the same reason the Type II
rather quickly replaced the Type I ... the extra steps (cost) to machine....

To date: Kenny Howell probably has done the most custom built ones ( I have one of his ) Millington , Dave Anderson , Jay Strite,
Austrian 'smith' Nadal , have also offered them.
Bill Proctor (this BB ) made his own, and you could follow his work in progress in these threads some years ago.

Coffinmaker · May 24, 2017, 02:05:51 PM

My personal Opinion (I am opinionated .. believe it or not), the Bestest looking, sleekest, sexiest conversion ever made was the Armi San Marco guns. Their "never never" 1861/1860 guns were just way KOOL. Such a shame they were such KRAP!!

Coffinmaker

Tuolumne Lawman · May 24, 2017, 06:12:45 PM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on May 24, 2017, 02:05:51 PM
My personal Opinion (I am opinionated .. believe it or not), the Bestest looking, sleekest, sexiest conversion ever made was the Armi San Marco guns. Their "never never" 1861/1860 guns were just way KOOL. Such a shame they were such KRAP!!

Coffinmaker

Well said, PARD! I totally agree. They were the sleekest! I had two when they first came out around 1999 or so. One worked perfectly, one worked 4 out of 5 shots....

Pettifogger · May 24, 2017, 08:28:07 PM

I'm in the process of rebuilding a pair of ASM conversions. I like the sight on the conversion ring and floating firing pin in the conversion ring. Hopefully, after a lot of work they will be decent shooters. Otherwise they will be undecent wall hangers or perhaps a pair of lamps.

Coffinmaker · May 26, 2017, 07:09:00 PM

Um ..... Lamps

Coffinmaker

Abilene · May 26, 2017, 11:49:00 PM

Quote from: Major 2 on May 24, 2017, 05:47:43 AM
I think Mike Harvey , might have approached the IDEA with Uberti, which became the Type II , perhaps for the same reason the Type II
rather quickly replaced the Type I ... the extra steps (cost) to machine....

Mike has stated he didn't think there was enough interest in a Type I. Not sure why, maybe still stinging from the ASM? But he owns a Type II, which he sent to Uberti to copy. It had the short ejector rod that some had, thus the first ones from Uberti did as well. Other than the rear sight, the Type II has the same appearance as a Type I. And it was a cost saving regarding the conversion ring, but the ejector system fit into the rammer slot still added cost, as it does with Uberti. The Type II is their most expensive conversion.

Major 2 · May 27, 2017, 05:26:15 AM

That was my understanding as well...

Any movement , in the Kreg Direction ?

Rooster Ron Wayne · June 06, 2017, 06:25:59 PM

I have two Open Top Uberti 7-1/2 in 44 specials .

Had them done by Long Hunters shop.
Took a few tries to get them right .
But thats another story .
They are sweet as heck now .

My 1849 come from a Pard on the SASS wire . ( Thanks TL.)
Sent it to Mike at Goons for some Black Magic work .

And My 1860's are Coffinmaker's Voodoo Children !

Im a little addicted to Open Tops Myself .
Just sayin .
Rooster .

Rooster Ron Wayne · March 04, 2018, 07:38:06 PM

I now have two more Open Top 1851's and they are getting Goonerized right now .
I know the 1851's was never made in 44 Caliber .
But I bought mine in 44 Cal just to keep things all interchangeable .
Rooster

mtmarfield · March 16, 2018, 07:09:35 PM

Greetings!

Well, when Cimarron received my Uberti / Win 1866 Infantry Rifle, chambered for the .44WCF, from Italy,
I decided that it would need a playmate to accompany it to my section of Colorado; therefore, I eschewed
the Remington NMA .44WCF that I had been formerly itching for, and had them send one of their "Closeout
Special" Colt's 1871/1872 Open Top, 5-1/2", .44Spl revolvers... What a beauty! I'll need to send it out for the
Recommended Service Plan, but only after I put ANOTHER box of .44R through it!
I need another with a 7-1/2" barrel, however...

M.T.Marfield

Coffinmaker · March 17, 2018, 03:22:20 PM

Well ..... Gotta stick my toe inna water again.

I'm no fan of the 1873 Colt SAA. Wonderful guns. Really tunable. Lots of history. Kind of ...... Blah. No snap. No .... pizzaz. I just don't like em all that much. I have a Pair, but I don't shoot them that often.

I go back to an earlier statement when we discuss Conversions. The sleekest, sexiest, most swellest handgun on the planet is/was the ASM Type 1 never never 1861/1860. And again, I also lament, it is/was such a shame ASM's build quality was such KRAP. Oh well.

Favoritest Suppository Shooter of all time though, is/was the 1871/72 One Top. Not the original. The original sample example was only ever chambered for 44 Henry Flat RF or the Colt proprietary similar cartridge. The Uberti replica Open Top on the other hand is MARVELOUS. EXCEPT: CAVEAT here. BIG, EXTRA LARGE CAVEAT: Only after the Barrel to Arbor fit has been fix'd. Preferably from the Arbor or by replaceable split washer. Think about it. One .. Just ONE well tuned frame/action. Switch between 3 calibers, 3 barrel lengths and 8 different cartridges in just seconds (with a little investment). Try that with a garden variety SAA/Replica. Dare ya. Oh, almost forgot. Included inherent short stroke. Not that I'm at all Opinionated. Nope. Not a bit!!

Tuolumne Lawman · April 11, 2018, 12:11:42 PM

I agree with Coffin Maker. The ASM 1860 type I were the best, but also the worst as far as quality control. I had a pair when they first came out. One worked perfectly, and one worked 5/6 times. It had a notch that was milled out of place on the cylinder. If they both had worked perfectly, I would have kept them as forever guns. Now I am happy with my Type II Richards from Uberti.