Buffalo arms 512-350 bullet for Armi Sport Spencers OAL needed

[Wolf Killer]

Hello Lads,
Anyone here that can give me advice on over all length of cartridge with the Buffalo Arms 515-350 bullet?
I am running an Armi Sport Spencer carbine with Starline brass and am hitting a brick wall as for a cartridge length for this bullet.
Tried the 1.505 as suggested at Wolfe Load Data, that is a no go for sure.

There is not much of a crimp groove on this bulet and my Lyman length of 1.540 has me crimping on the front band.
I have worked and polished this Spencer so that my usual load has to be snapped for the first two rounds, and last 4 or 5 load like a well tuned Winchester, I would still like to find a bullet and a length so all seven would load without that fast snap of the lever.

Any help would be dandy!

Thanks,

DB

[PvtGreg]

Try 1.58 - 1.6

[Wolf Killer]

Pvtgreg,
Thanks, that would be out of the crimp groove and  crimping over the first band?

I called Buffalo arms, and the loaded ammo they have uses a 1.487 length, I know that will never work.

Thanks,
DB

[Good Troy]

I use the Buffalo Arms 512-350 bullet in my Armi Sport Spencer carbine.  I use Starline brass and load to an OAL of 1.498 to 1.500 ".  This puts the crimp in the crimp groove.  I don't have any issues feeding these.  I do use a heavy crimp. 

[Wolf Killer]

Troy,
Thanks, I will give that a try and see if I can get it to feed.
DB

[Wolf Killer]

Troy,
I had some here at 1.496 to 1.50 with a heavy roll crimp into groove, the only way I can get them to feed is to use only three cartridges in magazine. Anymore, even one more, and the action locks open no matter how fast I lever.

Is there anything you did to your action that makes it accept this length?

Thanks
DB

[Good Troy]

Let me ask a question for clarity...
Will a full magazine (7 rounds) feed the first rounds?
Or, will a full magazine not feed any rounds?

It sounds to me like it is a magazine problem.  I had an issue with mine failing to feed at times.  It would feed the first several rounds, and then lock up.  I noticed that it appeared to be jamming with the same amount of rounds left in the magazine.  I inspected the magazine tube, and found that the follower didn't always move freely through out the entire range.  I took some emery cloth and smoothed out the edges of the track on the magazine tube.  She has worked fine since then.  You might take a look at this, and the interior of the magazine to make sure that follower can move freely.  The spring, at least on mine, isn't very robust! 

[Wolf Killer]

Troy,
My magazine is not a problem, I cleaned up the tube and follower long ago, and cut off three coils of tube spring which actually improved feeding.

If I have a good bullet and have the OAL set correctly ,my feed problems are almost always with the first two rounds of a full 7 round magazine..
I have to fast throw the first two, and they will still get a nicked bullet, the next five feed like a 73 Winchester.

The buffalo bullet I am having feed issues with. The 1.5 anunder will not feed at all, I have had some luck just now by setting the length at around 1.535. I still have a problem with the first two rounds, but the next 4 or 5 go through smooth.

I am told that the first two round problem is something you have to live with, but I am not on board with it. I think it lies somewhere in the rifles interior dimensions and where Armi Sport got their blueprints for their rifle. Seems to be the problem with the makers trying to reissue the Colt Lightning rifle. I have shot originals, and they were smooth as silk with no issues. Whereas, the repros need months of work and returns to get them to function correctly.

Thanks
DB

[Good Troy]

DB,

I didn't answer one of your questions....
I bought my carbine used on-line.  Supposedly it was previously owned by a re-enactor.  It appeared unfired to me.  The action doesn't appear to have been modified in any way to my inspection, and I've made no modifications myself, except the minor polishing on the magazine follower track.

From the description you are giving about the 1st couple of rounds in a magazine with "good" OAL cartridges sometimes causing trouble makes me wonder if it is related to the spring.  The spring is at near full compression on the first couple of rounds, and the force on the cartridge is at its maximum or near at this point.  So, I offer this information that is worth exactly what you paid for it...

Just for giggles, I checked my magazine spring length.  It is 14" long uncompressed...it shows only about 1-1/2 to 2 coils when placed in the tube without the follower attached. 

Hope this helps...or at least doesn't harm!

Respectfully,
Troy

[Wolf Killer]

Troy
one of the things I did in the beginning is cut three full coils of the mag spring, which eased some issues by giving me the easy 5 round feed, but still not the two first rounds.
This cut shows the tube to be flush to butt plate with an empty magazine, and the tube is out of the gun by 1.5 inches with one round in the magazine and some light compression on the first round which feeds great..

Ao, there is no more shortening to do, and eliminates, I feel, the mag tube as contributing to the  problem.

Thanks,
DB

[Good Troy]

Good luck.  I'll be interested to hear the root of the problem and the solution!

[El Supremo]

Hello, Wolf Killer:

The 1.56" OAL should be ok. 

BUT TWO OTHER things should help:
Hardness of the bullet matters.  The harder the less cycling friction and gouging.
A Bhn of at least 16 and as high as 18 work in my three.
The action needs to be heavily GREASED unless broken-in, to reduce mechanical friction.

I have tried a lot of overall lengths and with really hard bullets, WITH AMPLE CASE NECK TENSION AND A SLICK ACTION, MINE CYCLE OAL'S between 1.5" and 1.6".  OAL WILL VARY depending upon the bullet's nose profile.

And cycling DOES involve a learning curve to learn to manipluate the lever WITHOUT interruption.  If you LOOK AT IT or stop at the end of the forward lever stroke, the movement will be balky.

I have even greased the bullet noses to see if that matters, and it did a little, especially with softer alloy.

I struggled for a long time and HARD, REALLY HARD, alloy eliminated 90% of my cycling frustration. If you can indent the bullet ogive with your thumbnail it is probably too SOFT!

Now, the internal wall TAPER in Starline brass is such that a STRAIGHT WALLED expander die will expand the THINNER mouth to one ID and further down where the wall is thicker, to a greater ID.  This can expand the middle to lower area so much that the bullet is not held fully.  Crimping TOO much actually loosens the cases grip! Some die makers will taper the expander die to eliminate this factor.  A loose bullet can be spun IN the crimped case with one's fingers.  If so, the nose can cock a little off-center and change feeding.

By the way, this information is in the "Spencer Often Requested Information" ("SORI") complied by our Moderator, Two Flints.  It is on this Forum.

All the best,
El Supremo / Kevin Tinny