1st - 2nd -3rd

[echoe]

I am looking at a 3rd model dragoon and walker, both part of a colt series with the colt markings. They come in the black box with gold trim, a rubber foam cushion cut to accommodate the pistol. I'm not sure what "generation" they are . I have already ordered a copy of Dennis Russell's book but is won't arrive for a few days.
Once or both of the pistols have a colt escutcheon on the grip or the backstrap. Sorry I don't have photos.

thx

[Bunk Stagnerg]

somewhere, and I cannot remember the source,is  that those new Colt percussion guns are Italian parts finished and assembled here in the USA. Can anyone here verify this?
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Crow Choker]

2nd generation black powder percussion Colts came in a black box. Not sure what you mean by trim, but they had gold colored ends with information for model, serial number, etc. The 3rd generation or Signature models have a silver colored box, with COLT printed on the top in black. The Signature Models have Sam Colts 'signature' engraved on the backstrap.

A lot of controversy regarding the 2nd and 3rd generations. The 2nd's came out in the 70's and for a short time in the early 80's. One story is they are reported to have Uberti castings and parts, sent to Colt for final finishing and serial numbering. Another story(said to be the real skinny) is that they were finished by Louis and Anthony Imperato of the Colt Black Powder Arms Company (somehow the Iver Johnson Arms Co is in the mix also) then sent to Colt for inspection. 3rd Generations, produced in the 90's are also Uberti's basically, but produced/marketed by the Colt Black Powder Arms Company (reformed) under the leadership of Louis and Anthony Imperato under license and with blessings from Colt. A lot of back and forth between collectors. 2nd generation Colts will letter from Colt-3rd's will not. Some say both generations are true Colts, some say only the 2nd's are. (The Imperato's formed and own the current Henry Rifle Company). To much of the history of the 2nd' and 3rd's to type into this post.

I have a 3rd Model 3rd Generation Dragoon. I did call Colt once and spoke to one of their tech/customer service reps. He told me that 3rd generation Colts are technically Colts, but won't letter, but Colt won't officially recognize them. As for me, I could care 1/2 cent if they letter or not. My papers I got with mine say mine is a Colt-good enough for me. Anyway 2nd generation Colts will sell for more than 3rd generation models, but the 3rd generation ones sell for more than the basic Uberti/Pietta Colts of the same models. A lot of your Colt 2nd Generation Model purists froth at the mouth  when 3rd generation models are spoken of as 'Real Colts' even if it is in a whisper. A lot of the same controversy on other forums, those who say yes, those who say no. Probably be some rebuke posted here. Anyway that's it in a nutshell. Check out Dennis Adlers books too, he has a lot of info on them especially one titled 'Black Powder Revolvers-Reproductions and Replicas'. A lot of information on the 2nd and 3rd generations. There's some also down in the Colt Firearm section of the forum in past posts.

[Fingers McGee]

Ya came close CC.  

C series 2nd Gens were made in Hartford by Colt from 1971 through 1976.  C series only included the 1851 Navies and 3rd Model dragoons. Parts kits acquired from Uberti were finished and assembled by Colt.  From 1971 thru 1973, Colt's acquired unfinished parts sets fro Val Forgetts Navy Arms. From '73 to '76, Lou Imperato supplied the parts sets

F Series 2nd Gens - the black box Colt's - were made by Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms Company in Mddlesex NJ from 1977 through 1982.  The F series included all the models and were inspected, marketed, sold, and warranted by Colt's. Iver Johnson acquired rough castings and semi worked parts from American and Italian subcontractors as well as from in-house fabrication.

Signature Series Colt's were made by Lou Imperato and The Colt Blackpowder Arms CO in Brooklyn NY from 1994 through 2002 under license from Colt's.  They were made from rough castings and semi worked parts from American and Italian subcontractors as well as in house fabrication.  

 

[LonesomePigeon]

The bluing and case colors are super, super nice on the 2nd Gens and Sig Series both.

[Crow Choker]

There ya go Fingers, I knew that a 'gentleman and scholar' like you would come in here and give a good concise history of the 2nd and 3rd 'gen' Colts. I was typing from memory, was going to look up more info in a book, but the Mrs. was telling me to get my 'kiester' up and into the kitchen for supper. I recall back in the 70's seeing adverts and Colt catalogs with the 'new' Colt percussion revolvers thinking maybe I should start picking a few of them up, they could be worth a lot more someday. Ah, but growing kids and only 'X' amount of dollars as a LEO took care of that, kids are worth more anyway.

I am looking at a 3rd model dragoon and walker, both part of a colt series with the colt markings. They come in the black box with gold trim, a rubber foam cushion cut to accommodate the pistol. I'm not sure what "generation" they are . I have already ordered a copy of Dennis Russell's book but is won't arrive for a few days.
Once or both of the pistols have a colt escutcheon on the grip or the backstrap. Sorry I don't have photos.

thx

echoe:: Not sure what you are talking about ref the escutcheon on the grip or backstrap. Have never seen either the 2nd or 3rd Gen Colts with either. The 3rd's have Sam Colts Signature as I previously penned on the backstrap, but other than that neither even have the 'Rampart Colt' as most other Colt firearms have. Maybe you could be more specific if you don't have photo's. If the revolvers you are talking about are 2nd's as the black box would indicate, make sure the serial numbers on the boxes match the guns and no 'tricks of the crooked trade' restamped any numbers. Heard of sellers taking regular production Uberti's and either a black or silver 2nd/3rd Gen boxes and trying to sell the guns as 2nd or 3rd gens. Unfortunately there are 'wolves' even in the gun trade. I've heard of 'wolves' trying to sell regular production Uberti percussion revolvers as 2nd Gens or 3rd's. Saw a picture of a sloppy attempt to engrave Sam Colts signature on a backstrap. Not to long ago on Gunbroker a seller had a 2nd Gen 'F' series 1860 Army Model for sale, had the black box even showed the end cap, the serial number on the box was visible, but not real clear. The picture of the revolver looked a little 'hinkey' to me as not showing the quality of finish usually with the 2nd Gens. I sent a message to the seller as he didn't show any pictures of serial numbers of the revolver in his pictures. He wrote back that he would send. No answer, sent 2nd request, no answer. The gun sold for the average value they were selling for, but wonder if the buyer got took or not.

Several years ago a gun seller at a antique show was trying to sell several guns 'on the sly'. One a well used Uberti Open Top he was selling as a 'real' 1865 Model Colt. Gave the guy a history of Colts Open Tops/Conversions and showed him the remnants of Uberti's trademark on the defarbed gun. Also had a Genuine John Wayne (his words) 45 Colt short barrel 73' Colt. Said an extra cylinder was available, but he didn't have it. The seller advised that a person could take out the plugged cylinder and put in the extra cylinder and fire the gun. Asked the guy what ya had to do with the screw going through the end of the ejector shroud holding it on that was also protruding half way into the barrel. No answer. The gun was one of the Franklin Mint Commemorative issues. Told the guy he was selling items falsely, he claimed that was what the guy who sold them to him told him. Said he got took if true, if not he was trying to deceive buyers. A lot of people were standing listening to all the back and forth, the guy grabbed his guns and put them under his table. I reported him to the personal who were running the show, they had a talk with him, never saw the guns back on his table while I was there. The following year I checked out his wares he had, he remembered me, said he had all legitimate wares this year. There are crooks out there. Be wary. If you haven't bought the guns, check them out, ask questions. Make sure box and gun have unaltered numbers. If they are real 2nd Gens, if you don't know what their selling for, Gunbroker is a pretty good gauge of selling value, some of the guys on this forum buy them also, ask for advice.  Gotta go, church bells will be ringing soon.  

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Presently on my bench is a heavily modified Uberti 3rd model. All my concern is how does it shoot? Mine has a dovetail cut on the barrel flat and the back sight mounted there. Nice finish and ready to start the sight in process but still it is just a copy. If I should butcher it who cares? call DGW and get another one.
Frankly even though these Gen 1/2/3 guns are marked on the barrel top Colt Pat. Firearm Hartford Connecticut USA they are just a copy not an original. Very beautiful, real eye candy, but just a copy. Perhaps in years to come they may become collectors items, but not now.
At lest that is my opinion for what it is worth. I don't want to start a fight here just expressing my opinion.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Navy Six]

Can't offer any additional information to what was provided above, but Echoe, what are your expectations or purpose for the Walker and Dragoon? As stated the Colts are nicely finished on the outside with the real case coloring and polished bluing. For display they are great. If you plan on shooting them, all that extra effort in finishing them MAY not carry over to a better shooter. I used to own a bunch of 2nd & 3rd gen Colts along with a bunch of Ubertis. At times the internal components of the Colts didn't show the same attention given the outside. Not trying to disuade you or start an argument--Never a mistake to own a Colt--just offering a perspective. Having said that, at a gun show in PA this time last year I saw a Colt Walker that might have been the most beautiful handgun I've ever seen. Not sure of the generation as it was in a wooden display case, but the bluing and case colors were exceptional. Having just payed off hospital bills and income tax, all I could do was look and wish. Certainly, my loss. Good luck with your decision.

[Coffinmaker]

I always manage to annoy people when it comes to the 2d and 3rd generation of Colt Percussion guns (HI FINGERS!!).  BUT, I'm just a humble (who ME) Gunplumber (Retired) who has no interest in collecting.  Anything.  So I normally start by describing the second and third generation Colts as a Redneck in a Tuxedo.  The Second Generation guns were made from Uberti Parts.  The "early" 3rd generation were made from Uberti parts with the later 3rd generation being made from ASM parts.  Hence, Redneck inna Tux.

ALL of the 2nd and 3rd generation Colts I have worked on had exactly the same build problems experienced with Uberti Percussion gins and needed some extensive care and attention to be real shooters.  I'm not so sure Colt or Imperato ever expected the guns to be shot.  Collecting and Wall Hanging perhaps.  Anyway, once gone through and set up, they made fine percussion guns.  Just don't be real surprised if they don't exactly thrill ya right out of the box.  Also, understand there is a Caveat here.  I got to see a lot of guns because they needed help.  Serious help.  There may well be some out there that don't/didn't need help.  I don't get to see those, if they exist.

Prices for 2nd and 3rd Gen Colt Percussion are already way overpriced in the market place.  I have no idea if the bubble will burst.  I just wouldn't bet the College Education for your First Born on em.

Coffinmaker

[Crow Choker]

What Sir Coffinmaker said. That's why of the ten percussion revolvers I have, only one of them is a 3rd Gen/no 2nd's. Main reason I have that (3rd Model Dragoon) is that I paid the same dollars for it back in 08 that I had previously had paid several months before for a new 2nd Model Uberti Dragoon I bought from Cimarron. The guy had a big collection ( all NIB) of them he was getting rid of them and he only had two left , the Dragoon and a 51 Navy. Would I buy any more either 2nd or 3rd Gens, probably if the price was right, but not really drooling for any more right now. I did bid on a couple of new 1860 Armys 3rd Gens in the last 4-5 months that were on Gunbroker, but they got higher than I wanted to pay. Same with a couple of 2nd Gens. My stock Uberti's and several Pietta's work just fine after some tinkerin as Coffinmaker, Pettifogger, 45 Dragoon, and others advise of checking and doing. Should have bought a dozen of every 2nd Generation Models back when they came out, same as a dozen Colt Pythons back when they were getting less than $200 a copy. Oh well.

[echoe]

Wow. It's taking me a minute to digest all the info. I will get information on the pistols I looked at and a better description with photos hopefully. I had hoped to get some piece that was a collectible. But if I get a higher grade "colt" that may not be considered a true colt just because it carries the Colt name, I would gladly use it as a shooter after I got to check it out in an in-hand inspection.
Thanks to all who commented. It is a good education for me.

[LonesomePigeon]

I agree with 2nd Gen Colt's having the same problems as Uberti's.

I don't neccisarily agree that they are over priced. Some are. I've seen people asking rediculous amounts, $800 -900. Then I've seen some sell for around $450 -600. That's only about 200 or 300 dollars more than a new Uberti of the same model. I think the markings and finish are worth $200 or 300 extra. That is actually less than what it would cost to have a Uberti refinished to Colt levels. 

[Fingers McGee]

I have never been annoyed by you Coffinmaker.  I have , in fact, enjoyed and learned from your treatices on not only 2nd Gen and Sig Series Colt's; but examples of the myriad of other manufacturers as well.  I am merely a shooter & collector that has been known to pick up a file once in a while.  

I agree wholeheartedly that the 2nd Gens are overpriced - a least when I'm buying another example for the collection.  If you are patient, and wait, reasonably priced examples can be had.  Wish I had started collecting the 2nd Gens when they first came out.  I could have a nice nest egg by now.  Back in those days I was lucky to be able to buy .22s

[cheatin charlie]

Here are a couple of Colts for sale.  You decide if the price is right.  Don't know the seller or the guns.  Just for information only.

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/260723-wts-2nd-generation-colt-dragoon-pictures-added/

[Bunk Stagnerg]

 My few real Gen 1 Colts date back to the early 1900 and earlier. The Colt copies are Pietta and Uberti and, with the exception of the 1862 Police model, are all shooters. My Walker is an ancient ASM devoid of finish and really not fun to shoot because somewhere in its history the wheels have gone lost. A 3rd model Dragoon (Uberti) was purchased on a whim ( not smart) now carries a fluted cylinder and looks very sexy. All are shooters, have no particular value other than shooters.
The Dragoon will be for can rolling and bottle busting. My shooters are a pair of 160 Army guns that shoot where I point them and hit what I point at.
My opinion for what it is worth.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Started shooting in to zero my customized 3rd Dragoon with the fluted cylinder. Got to cut the rear sight down a bunch sice I am 17" high at 10 yards. It looks like a new front sight is in the future, I do have a front sight for a 1911 that should be tall enough.
Before any one gets their leggins in a bunch it is a can roller, bottle buster fun gun. It is way too heavy for SASS and was never meant for that. Any suggestions on what range to zero for plinking?
But that cylinder sure looks way cool.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[echoe]

work is intruding on my personal time so sorry for late reply. i was thinking to use both colt pistols i was considering - the walker and the 3rd dragoon as collectibles. but after doing more research i don't think they will reach collectible status in my lifetime. i may change my mind after talking to more experienced shooters at the upcoming trade meet at okc gun club on the 6-8th april. my knowledge all dates back to the 1970's when guns and shooting were not as well documented and info not as complete or sophisticated as they are today on the internet.
more later .... the wolf is howling.

[Crow Choker]

echoe: If they are both 2nd Gen guns, they are collectables now. There are shooters such as Fingers McGee who collect them and others. The price over a standard Uberti says that, also the price over a 3rd Gen. Suppose there are 3rd Gen collectors also. There was a seller on GunBroker that had 6-7 models of 2nd Gen revolvers for sale. Starting price was in the $775 area if I recall. I think they were relisted around three times as know one was buying. I don't know if they're still listed or not. One buyer did buy a '60 Army for the asking price though. Are they a collectable that will net ya 5/10 times over what the going price's are now or will net ya a retirement nest egg? Nope, not yet, maybe sometime as you referred to. If ya just looking for shooters and donot want to pay the price the seller is asking, then run of the mill Uberti's will shoot just as well after some timing and smithing. If ya buy them, you'll mainly have the satisfaction of knowing your shooting something most cap and ball shooters don't have and will be worth a little more some time if ya sell them or hand them down. Most everything around today will be worth more in the future, that's why antique shows/shops exist. Like everything else, most of whatever is considered classic or antique now is because most of the like items when new were eventually destroyed, tossed, wore out, altered, etc and the remaining items now worth more than original value.

[Coffinmaker]

Holy Smokes!  .  Does that mean I'm now a valuable classic or antique??  I mean heck ... I was "new" once.  I even functioned as designed!!   

Then I got tossed.  Wore out.  Near Destroyed and some altered.  As a remaining item I should be well worth a great deal more than "original" value!!   

I think I'm inspired!!  WOW.  A CLASSIC!!  ME!!  OK.  Get in line.  The bidding will start shortly!!!   

Classic Coffinmaker (Antique)

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Coffinmaker
You are priceless!
Bunk