Uberti Research Project

[Long Johns Wolf]

Howdy to the campfire.
I am working on a research project. It's on the Uberti company.
One chapter will be dealing with the question when a few of their key guns were produced for the first time or first launched in the USA.
The question here is when did Uberti start making their versions of the 1860 Henry in .44 Henry RF and .44-40 and the Winchester 1866? Their first Win 66 was probably the carbine version and in .38 Special cal. but correct me if I am wrong?
Thanks for your help.
Long Johns Wolf

[Mike]

A paper on the history of Italian made guns would be very interesting.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Val Forget at Navy Arms would be a good one to contact.  I believe they were the first ones to import them, including the 44 RF version.

[Major 2]

Indeed Val Forgett III  @ the Gibbs Rifle Company & Old Western Scrounger

However ,  Forgett Jr. the father of replica firearms in the US  died in 2002   

I'm going on memory, here Wolf ...so until hard Data is offered 

The Henry was first reintroduce (replica) and produced in New Jersey, USA by Val Jr. , he made as I recall some 500 in center fire 44/40
50 in the original rim fire,  and about 1000 in 22" Carbine length as he called it.
The first NJ gun appears in 1977 as I recall,  with in a year , year and half , production was moved to Aldo Uberti.
There were some engineering changes to the receiver ( screw placement & deletions )
The 22" Carbine & the 24" Rifle were available....
As I recall in 1979 , at first NAVY ARMS/Replica Arms in NJ, imported them.... followed  by Allen Arms Santa Fe, NM. ( now owned by Mike Harvey/Cimarron Arms ) I recall EMF/Boyd Davis also offered them by 1981-2

I have a [AE] coded 22" Carbine I bought it NIB in 1980 ....(Sold it in 88 and bought it back in 2008 ... but that's another story )
So mine is an earlier Uberti in 44/40

If you look closely, you can see it slung over my shoulder in this photo taken in 1982 ( Carbine did not have the Swivel & Barrel loop,
these were originals I purchased through Dixie Gun Works an added ) 

[Major 2]

BTW ... I also had a Uberti SRC 66 in 38 cal. the Date code on it was [AF]

Sold it in 1988 also ....whereabouts now unknown 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Thanks Major 2 for this input.
Regarding the Uberti made Henries in .44-40 you are then confirming the year 1978 I found elsewhere on the internet. Thanks a bunch.
Regarding the .44-40 version do I understand your correctly that VF/Navy Arms made them
a.)100 % in the USA
b.) prior to Uberti got involved in the making of the Henries in the first place?
I also seem to recall that VF/Navy arms (with involvement of Uberti?) made some 25 of their Henries (?) in the original caliber .44 Henry RF but was (wrongly?) under the Impression that this was kind of a joint project between VF/Navy Arms in New Jersey and Uberti in Italy.
You say they 50 were made in New Jersey. Can I get some more confirmation for this piece of information?
I don't care too much if it is 25 or 50.
But it seems to be important to figure out if Uberti was involved in the Henry project before 1978. Because if there is no hard data supporting this then we can conclude that
# yes, Uberti made the Henries first in .44-40 from 1978 only and later added .45 Colt and .44 Special but
# no, Uberti never had a variant in the original caliber.
Long Johns Wolf

[Major 2]

Thanks Major 2 for this input.
Regarding the Uberti made Henries in .44-40 you are then confirming the year 1978 I found elsewhere on the internet. Thanks a bunch.
Regarding the .44-40 version do I understand your correctly that VF/Navy Arms made them .... YES
a.)100 % in the USA ... YES
b.) prior to Uberti got involved in the making of the Henries in the first place?  ...YES

I also seem to recall that VF/Navy arms (with involvement of Uberti?) made some 25 of their Henries (?) in the original caliber .44 Henry RF but was (wrongly?) under the Impression that this was kind of a joint project between VF/Navy Arms in New Jersey and Uberti in Italy.
You say they 50 were made in New Jersey. Can I get some more confirmation for this piece of information?
"Yes  Val Jr. first made them in the NJ USA,  moved production to Uberti/Italy, I want to say in "78"
Val./Navy Arms produced a limited edition of 50 Henry rifles marked .44 RF. he even manufactured .44RF fodder  for them.
(I think he also made 41 Cal. RF)
Another of 500 - 24" Henry rifles and 1000 Henry carbines with a 22 inch barrel were made , All in .44-40

Val III whom I know has confirmed this


I don't care too much if it is 25 or 50.
But it seems to be important to figure out if Uberti was involved in the Henry project before 1978. Because if there is no hard data supporting this then we can conclude that
# yes, Uberti made the Henries first in .44-40 from 1978 only and later added .45 Colt and .44 Special but
# no, Uberti never had a variant in the original caliber.
Long Johns Wolf

[Long Johns Wolf]

Thanks, Major 2, you busted the Uberti Henry myth:
# VF/Navy Arms was the first industrial maker of Henries after the 19th century production.
# VF/Navy Arms Henries were made in New Jersey in the period ca. 1976/77.
# They were machanically different from the later made Uberti Henries and were available in at least the two (2) calibers .44 Henry RF and .44-40.
Uberti commenced making their Henries from 1978 only.
Long Johns Wolf

[Blair]

Don't know if this will help?
I bought a .22cal. 1866 SRC back in 1969. It was offered by Navy Arms. I was under the impression it was made in Italy as parts and shipped to the US to be assembled and finished. I would have to say this is the time period when the bass framed lever guns kind or took off.
I went on active duty in the USN in Sept of that year and had sold the carbine before that.
During 1978 or 79 I was very much involved with ACW reenacting when, as I remember, the first Navy Arms, Italian production Henrys became the Civil War firearm to have within reenacting.
Val was very much involved with getting old Remington tooling set back up and running that had been shipped down to South America in the 18th Century. Making all kinds of things like Percussion caps and rim fire ammo.

Then in the early 1990's I learned that Navy Arms had made some .44 rim fire Henrys back in and about the time period of 1978 or 79.
I don't recall the exact production date of these arms, but, they were parts and pieces that were made in Italy and shipped here to the US for assembly and finishing by Navy Arms and a few other sub contractors.
My best,
Blair

[Major 2]

Here are couple of photos of the Early USA Henry

and the 22" Uberti Henry [AE] ( those are 20" x 20" Tiles )

the time span here was about two years

Note: the 2nd screw in the USA made and the Brescia made Henry.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Thanks for this piece of the Henry puzzle, Blair.
During my research into Uberti's key products I read somewhere that the first Uberti Win 66 was in .22 lfb cal. and that it was produced in 1965. This would mean the proof mark XXII.
However, why would Uberti launch the gun in 1965 when its centennnial was just a year away?
And why in .22 lfb but not something more period correct?
Lots of questions that deserve answers.
Long Johns Wolf

[Blair]

LJW,

If it were assembled here in the US, why would it have an Italian Proof Date production stamp?

I can't account for the caliber choice in the early '66's.
Except, perhaps because of the belief that the Brass frames were not strong enough to handle the smokeless cartridges of the larger calibers?
I remember a lot of discussion about this during the time period, and it is still going on to this date.
My best,
Blair

[Major 2]

I've offered this info before  
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=57996.0

I stand by what Val III had told me

[Long Johns Wolf]

Sorry pards, I am confused.
Were the parts of these early VF/Navy Arms Henries in .44 Henry RF and .44-40 supplied by Uberti or were they (100 %) USA made?
Long Johns Wolf

[Tuolumne Lawman]

As to Navy Arms making rimfire ammo:  I have personally handled a box of Navy Arms 44 rimfire back in the late 1980s or early 1990s. It was very pricey, at $100/50, IIRC. I was baby blue, like the boxes for the .41 Remington derringer rimfire ammo they made.  The .41 rimfire ammo was a catalogue item in the 1990s, when they still had paper catalogs.  A friend of mine, Jerry O'Hara, ordered some for his .41 derringer in the mid to late 1990s.  He had actually carried it as a police back up in the 1970s and 1980s....

[Major 2]

Sorry pards, I am confused.
Were the parts of these early VF/Navy Arms Henries in .44 Henry RF and .44-40 supplied by Uberti or were they (100 %) USA made?
Long Johns Wolf

I can only repeat what I was told.... Memory serves, it was at the large gun show in Lakeland. I had table adjacent to that of Val Forgett III & his wife, in the course of the two day show...we had several discussions.
One discussion pertained to the Early Henry's, the RF's and Ridgefield NJ. production.
We did not discuss, where the ferrous & non ferrous metals were mined , or if A. Uberti was involved in the rawest of casting.
I only know the RF's and the initial series were "Manufactured" in NJ ...I also know they were threaded in US standard not Metric.
I know by the time I ordered mine in April 1980 , Navy Arms was sold out of RF's , and rifles marked with NJ  ....all that was available & What I received was a 22" Carbine in 44/40 ( see previous photos ). This is a [AE] code made in Italy, making it a 1979....

Seems perfectly plausible, knowing Val Forgett Jr.s history with Aldo Uberti , the many trips to Brescia he made, that the fine artisans
at Uberti were involved ...but I don't have that knowledge.

Wolf, I have put you on the trail to contact Val III in W. Virginia, perhaps he will shed light on subject.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Hi Major and campfire, I sent an email to Val III.
Let's x fingers that he responses with hard facts.
Long Johns Wolf

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I did not want to throw my hat in the ring on this, because I don't remember some of the specifics (like the year).  I now think what I do remember is germane to the thread.

When I was a staff writer for the Cowboy Chronicle (from about 1996 to 2012), I had done some research on the Uberti Henry (and the genesis of Cowboy guns), and had communicated with Val Forget Jr. in the late 90s. He personally told me that the production of Henries started in the US, and later switched to Uberti after a couple years, because production costs were cheaper.  I remember this, because during the conversation, we also talked about his accessories, and he ended up sending me one of the canvas loop 45-70 belts they used to sell.  I don't recall the years he gave me, but what Major 2 stated seems about right.

Fast forward into the 2000s, I had a face to face conversation with Boyd Davis of EMF about the origins of CAS guns, and he referred to the Henries first being produced in the US, but then moved over seas. He credited Val Forget Jr. for his efforts.

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   This is very exciting stuff here! I'd love to see Old Articles / Source Documents, photos, etc.,
that may surface in the process of LJW's research, posted!

                 M.T.Marfield

[Long Johns Wolf]

Thanks pards. The stuff will eventually be posted but please, be patient.
In addition to this Henry requests I posted similar request regarding the Uberti made
Winchester 1866,
conversions and Open Tops in the Storm Forum,
Winchester 1873 in the 1873 forum and regarding their
Colt SAA in the SAA clone forum.
Please, be kind enough and share your knowedge with the rest of the Cowboy & cowgirl world and me here at CAS-City.
Thanks a lot,
Long Johns Wolf