Older Navy Arms 1851 Colt

[Grenadier]

I recently picked up a Navy Arms marked 1851 with the date code of XIX, which puts it in 1963. I am curious if there is some collectible aspect to these older replicas. I would like to slick it up, swap out the nipples and use it as a shooter but I do not want to harm any collector interest by doing these modifications. There was hard dried grease in the bore when I found it, never been fired. 

[Coffinmaker]

I must admit, I haven't seen a reproduction 1851 from the 60s.  I don't honestly know if anyone is actually collecting anything in/from the Italian reproduction market.  Well ....... Except Fingers McGhee (spel??).  He is only interested in the Stainless Italian copies of Colt percussion guns.  My personal opine would be no.  No collector value.

With a reproduction that old, you may have a parts availability problem though.  The manufacturers sometimes make subtile small changes over time.  About the only "standard" unchanged part will be the Main Spring.  If your going to play with your Knew-Two-Ewe 1851, you will want to get the OEM Main Spring out of it as quick as your can.....  An after-market Spring will require fitting but will be worth it to avoid undue wear.  Changing out the OEM nipples is also a great idea.  Treso or Slix.  My personal preference is Slix. 

Prior to putting it into service, you will need to check/fix the Arbor to Barrel fit then Carr on from there.

Coffinmaker

[Fingers McGee]

There is some collectors value to the older percussion guns; albeit very limited.  Besides myself, there are a few that frequent some of the other blackpowder forums that like the older guns.  Unless you got it free, you probably wouldn't make much if you tried to sell it.  If it's got a good action now; I'd shoot it.  If not, 45 Dragoon can make it sing.  The older G&U revolvers use different size nipples than current Ubertis do.

Coffinmaker - I'm interested in the 2nd Gen Colt's as well as the Stainless Steel Ubertis.  AAMOF, I'm thinning down my inventory of older and/or rarer revolvers to buy more 2nd Gens.  

[Grenadier]

Thanks gentlemen, I didn't think it would hold much interest but I wanted to check before playing with it. I am considering sending it to Goon to have him tune it up for me.

[Long Johns Wolf]

I do not fully agree with this verdict regarding the collector's value.
Particularly the early G&U marked Uberti percussion revolvers produced for or during the Centennial period of the Civil War are sought after by collectors.
Of course condition is an issue.
Production of G&U marked Ubertis started in 1959 for Navy Arms.
First models manufactured were the Colt 1851 Navy and its CS brass framed pendant Griswold & Gunnison. Later during the early 1960s the Remington NM 1963 Army followed at the request of Val Forgett of Navy Arms.
Dr. Jim Davis of RPRCA will hopefully chime in to add his expertise on the subject of collecting percussion replica revolvers.
Long Johns Wolf

[Major 2]

I'll chime in here , leaning on the Long John Wolf quote...

"I do not fully agree with this verdict regarding the collector's value interest ."

I modify it in the value is only what one might pay for it (   well Duh ) what I mean is , it will never bring serious money..
maybe stupid money  
They sold in 1963 for around $59 .....today a new one with the Euro VS dollar, plus inflation retail ( not dealer) $250 (sale) -300. or bit higher. So that is the range you are in ....not very serious money  

No reason you should not tune it and shoot it .....

Gary Barnes aka Hoof Hearted is fine Smith or the Coffin Maker  (retired) but is known to still take on a interesting project or two.
these two , would be my first go to gents.

[Long Johns Wolf]

With due respect, pards & pardettes, I tend to disagree...again.
These early G&U marked Uberti Navies and G&Gs in well maintained condition are rare.
I assume that their quantity is comparable to the early Belgian Centaures of that period, i.e. just a few 1,000s.
And like the Centaures probably less than 30 % survived of which less than only half might be in a reasonable condition.
Another underrated field for discoveries in my book.
Long Johns Wolf

[LonesomePigeon]

The GU's are neat. They are of slightly smaller dimensions than the later Uberti's and have a number of other different features, non-engraved cylinder, square sight notch,  different barrel twists, slimmer grips, ect.

[Hoof Hearted]

I have owned a number of these "Gregorelli & Uberti" pistols!
Here are my current pair (before they started stamping date codes on them).

[Coffinmaker]

Well it would seem I may actually be somewhat in error.  It would appear there may well be some collector interest in the early G&U guns.
Unfortunately, it would appear we really would need to find a mechanism to collect up some G&U guns and ship em to Europe and let Long Johns Wolf act as our lead Trader.

Although, Allowing for licensing, Importation, Shipping, Stockage and advertising, I would be in doubt about the level of ... um ... Profit.
Starting with a base of 59 Bucks (anyone know where the term "Bucks" derives??) when new, I would think Major 2's extemate of current value, allowing for inflation, exchange rate, etc. to be a bit optimistic.  Of course, we must remember .... I don't collect.  I Tune and shoot em.  I seriously doubt I'd be enamored enough to part with anything more than about $75 for that old of an Uberti.  Then again, we also must remember I don't like Uberti.  I think I'd be more inclined to keep the folding money inna pocket 'till I could scarf up a nice Pietta.

Coffinmaker

[Fingers McGee]

There is a 1961 date coded G&U Leech and Rigdon (incorrectly listed as an 1851 Navy) with presentation case and accessories on GunBroker right now with about 15 hours to go and setting at $335.  Auction #615003586

[Major 2]

There is a 1961 date coded G&U Leech and Rigdon (incorrectly listed as an 1851 Navy) with presentation case and accessories on GunBroker right now with about 15 hours to go and setting at $335.  Auction #615003586

Sort of illistrates my assessment ... the rarer case L&R a 56 year old serviver G&U sitting @ $335 ( we'll see where it goes in the 9 hours left )  ...isn't serious money,  granted more than I have in MAD gun cash at this moment 

Still , at about retail for NIB Uberti given the peramitors ( 1961 vs 2017 Euro VS Inflation )

So also given this a Leech & Rigdon  AND  Cased with accoreseries    there is a buyer and I think it will be a good buy.

I might even be a player if'n  the mad clams were burning a hole in my pocket .

[Crow Choker]

There is a 1961 date coded G&U Leech and Rigdon (incorrectly listed as an 1851 Navy) with presentation case and accessories on GunBroker right now with about 15 hours to go and setting at $335.  Auction #615003586

Major; I took a look on GB at the gun Fingers mentioned, nice looking, with accessories and box, price is decent, don't plan on bidding, but put on 'watch' to see what it sells for. Several years ago I bought a Navy Arms Uberti made 61' Navy 36 caliber on GB from a seller. He bought an estate gun collection that the elderly deceased owner had purchased every model (sometimes two of each) of all the available models of cap and ball revolvers available during the time the first owner was buying for his collection. The seller I purchased from said he couldn't keep everything he bought for his collection and advised a lot had never been fired and most fired very little. The Navy I bought was in new/perfect shape. Had the usual Italian proof marks, Uberti stamp, Navy Arms on the barrel, and AB in box which according to the chart I used, puts in a 1976 DOB. Not a 60's version as some of the previous posts talked about, but a nice shooter, well made (metal fit and finish/nice wood and fit/beautiful caseharding). I did change the main spring to a Wolfe as the original had the 'tuffist'  pull back I've ever seen on a cap and ball. Good deal also, $255 plus shipping, no other bids. Well pleased with it, even from a die hard 44 caliber shooter.
Curious, what qualifies a Italian made revolver to be a G&U?   Date of manufacturer I assume, if so, what is the cut off date. Not looking to sell the 61 Navy I have for big dollars, just curious.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Crow Choker and campfire: to the best my current state of research G&U started with the beginning of the Gregorelli & Uberti partnership to make the 51 Navies and the G&Gs for Navy Arms in 1959 (year code XV), and ended allegedly as late as in 1963 (year code XIX).
Long Johns Wolf

[45 Dragoon]

Thank you for the mention Fingers!  I've had a few G&Us through here. No pot stirring here .  .  .  .  lol.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Hoof Hearted]

Crow Choker and campfire: to the best my current state of research G&U started with the beginning of the Gregorelli & Uberti partnership to make the 51 Navies and the G&Gs for Navy Arms in 1959 (year code XV), and ended allegedly as late as in 1963 (year code XIX).
Long Johns Wolf

Howdy Wolfe!
Your Texan Thuer® friend here......
Shoot me an email and I will send you some info that I have. I currently own two G&U 1851 Navy's without date stamps and with 4 digit serial #'s that start with #1. I believe this makes them a first year gun as I owned and sold a two digit gun that had no date stamp also (besides that $503.99 Leech & Rigdon you "good ol' boys" ran up by posting about here in this thread).........

[Coffinmaker]

Bummer.
With the buyers premium, the thing went for 554.29 - Tax, License, Dealer Prep & Optional Whit Walls.  Fairly, that would be 150 Bucks for the gun and 404.29 for the box and accessories.

I even took a look at the pix.  Appeared unfired, unmolested.  Typical Uberti Open Top with the barrel jammed up tight against the cylinder face (Arbor too short or Barrel receptacle too deep).  Just been laying around in it's swell box.  What a waste.

Coffinmaker

[Hoof Hearted]

Curious, what qualifies a Italian made revolver to be a G&U?   Date of manufacturer I assume, if so, what is the cut off date. Not looking to sell the 61 Navy I have for big dollars, just curious.

Crow, The "venture" to have a repro COLTs pistol started with a gent named William B Edwards. He owned the "low numbers mismatch" Colt 1851 Navy. He and Val Forgett formed an alliance to have a copy produced, looking first to Germany and then to Italy. The trials and tribulations they endured are well chronicled but eventually this effort resulted in the formation of Navy Arms. The Gardone area was inhabited by a number of small family gunshops. Gregorelli produced the parts and Uberti finished the pistols, hence the G&U engraved on the RH side of the barrel lug.

[Hoof Hearted]

Bummer.
With the buyers premium, the thing went for 554.29 - Tax, License, Dealer Prep & Optional Whit Walls.  Fairly, that would be 150 Bucks for the gun and 404.29 for the box and accessories.

I even took a look at the pix.  Appeared unfired, unmolested.  Typical Uberti Open Top with the barrel jammed up tight against the cylinder face (Arbor too short or Barrel receptacle too deep).  Just been laying around in it's swell box.  What a waste.

Coffinmaker

Sorry, it was $523.98

So who from here bid it up?

[Crow Choker]

Thanks for the info Hoof, never have read that part of the history of the Italian repo's. None of the bids came from me on the GB gun in question.