POSTED FOR Ken McPheeters Antiques - Comments Requested

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

Recently I picked up a Spencer which was built by a modern gunsmith in the style reminiscent of a "Gemmer Hawken" frontier rifle.  It is built on an original M1865 Spencer Rifle receiver, with original lock, lower breechblock, loading lever, and trigger group.  The butt and fore stocks, butt plate, toe plate, sights, and the .50 cal. barrel are all modern additions.  The upper breech block is a well made center fire replacement with a rebounding (spring loaded) firing pin.  Both the barrel and upper breech block are serial numbered to match the original SN on the receiver, and the only other markings on the gun is a very small "S" in a circle stamped immediately adjacent to the SN's on the upper block and the bottom of the barrel.  No other maker or gunsmith's name appears on any of the components.  

The work to convert the rifle into the configuration of a "Gemmer Hawken" Spencer was very well done.  The metal finish is quite nice, the butt and fore stocks were well chosen for the figure and are finished nicely, and the inletting was well done.  Whoever built this one, knew what they were doing.  

Chambered for .56-50, and the barrel is 34" long and measures 1 1/8" from flat to flat.  The rifle weighs close to 15 lbs.    

The lack of a set of standard frontier front blade/rear buckhorn sights is interesting considering the amount of effort to adhere to the historical appearance of the rifle, but as it was a custom order, perhaps the end user had aged to the point that his eyes couldn't focus on a typical sight arrangement.  The tang sight looks okay, but I intend to replace the front sight with a classic prominent blade.  Adding a buckhorn rear sight wouldn't be difficult, but I haven't made that decision at this point.  

To be clear, this conversion was not 19th Century work, rather something that was done by a modern gunsmith - probably in the last twenty years or so.

I'd like to know who produced this rifle, and if it is a production piece such as are made in Italy, or if it was a "one of" effort.   I'm hoping some one on your discussion board might be able to help me identify the maker.  I have been in contact with David at Lodgewood and Larry Romano of Romano Rifles and neither one was the maker, nor did they recognize the work.    

I would like to shoot this one just for the experience, but I'm not set up for reloading and don't want to have to go to the extent of acquiring all the necessary dies and components for as little as I'll shoot it.  If anyone knows of a source for commercial ammo, I'd appreciate the lead.  Buffalo Arms indicates on their site that the .56-50 CF is currently unavailable.  

Thank you for your time and, in advance, for your assistance.  

Best regards,

Ken McPheeters














                                   (Photos Posted by Two Flints)

[treebeard]

TEN-X Ammo sells 56-50 loaded cartridges. They also will reload empty cases for a fraction of buying their factory loads.
Not cheap but cheaper than setting up to reload. Hope this helps.

[PvtGreg]

Two flints I have some 56-50 for my Romano.  I have to admit they are rather indifferently loaded.

I think I have 20 or so I'd donate to you for the experience.

You can contact via email (same as before)

Pvt Greg

[El Supremo]

Wow, bet that wasn't cheap to convert. 

Lots of handwork HOURS and machine work involved.  Stock work like that could amount to at least a thousand dollars.  Barrel, etc would be another thousand, all on top of the original parts.  It could have been a single, personal effort.

Two others tried unsuccessfully to build a FUNCTIONING Spencer, but Romano's was already perfected.  His rifle created a major stir and tanked the Fletcher-Bidwell/Howell (Piper) version that could only be single loaded unless repaired. A few were sold and Dixie had advertised one.  The Dixie one was #22.  It was sold to a fellow slightly west of Atlanta.  He passed in 2017.    Another, unnamed person in KY tried to reproduce the Spencer using original parts until he could sell enough to begin making his own parts, but the availability of original receivers did him in.  No one I know recalls his name.  If there were more than a few with that "S" touchmark, Romano, Lodgewood and S and S in New York would remember. 

Try the oldest lady at Dixie and also Track of The Wolf, Dave Riplinger, on the touchmark, which I don't recognize.

Also, try Mr. John Holland, head of the N-SSA's Small Arms Approval Committee.  He can be reached via the N-SSA Forum with a private message.   

Will be very interested to know if provenance is discovered.

Regards,

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[matt45]

Is the receiver vintage or of modern manufacture?

[mcpheeters]

Thanks to all of you who have replied and have offered suggestions.  I'm still in the process of chasing down some more leads, but so far no one has claimed the rifle as their work, nor do they recognize the maker's stamp. 

I do appreciate the help and your comments.  Look forward to additional posts.

Best regards,

Ken

PS:  The receiver appears to be an original. 

[Will Ketchum]

I have seen several modern Gemmer type conversions of various actions. The most recent that come to mind was a Rolling Block with an 1 1/8 barrel. That was a beast. My point is there are numerous home gun makers who might have done this in their home shops. Any machine work could have been done by a local gunsmith who wouldn't mark it as his since it wouldn't be.

Will Ketchum

[Two Flints]

I think you should go back to the original seller of the Spencer and try to find out where he obtained the Spencer . . .  just maybe there is a family member who could shed light on the history of your Spencer . . . may have been a "home gunsmith" alteration.

Two Flints  

[mcpheeters]

Would that I could.  I purchased the rifle at an auction and in spite of my long term relationship with the company, and having a personal relationship with the employees and owner, they have a sacrosanct rule which prohibits releasing consignor information.  In this case, even if they would do it, it would do no good as the man who owned it has passed and I know he left no heirs, nor any documentation for his collection. 

This brings up something I encounter on a regular basis.  If you have anything in your collection which has a story attached to it, write it down, and have some organized filing system which will help those who follow to know what you had and the story behind it.  I regularly deal with family members who don't have a clue what dad or grandpa collected, where he got it, what he paid for it, and if there is any notable history that accompanies the piece. 

Just recently I assisted a family dispose of a military collection which occupied over 2000 sq ft of display area.  It was a lifetime collection and it was filled with some very historic pieces - items identified to a Flying Tiger Ace, two other WWII aces - the list was endless.  In this case, I had known the owner for some 20 years and was in a position to help them assemble the right paperwork with the right items, and to ferret out the sleepers in the collection that the owner had never gotten around to labeling.   

Its more common than not for collectors to leave little, if any, information behind.  Just the nature of the hobby, I guess.  But a little organization and record keeping can make the difference between a thoughtful inheritance and a nightmare.   

Just something to consider.

Best, Ken