Old Einsford VS Swiss

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho the fire,

Hold the whiskey and listen up!

I've been loading 45-70 ammo, and now I have enough for a season and a half.  I do it like this.  I take a piece of clean brass, prime it with a RCBS hand primer.  After a bowl full of brass, I mark a piece with an chamber orientation mark and put some PL-II lube on the brass.  Then, I size and bell the brass.  Next, with the use of a 3' brass trumpet/drop tube, I drop in 4.3cc of black powder.  Then, I press in (with my thumb) a .460 1/8" Circle Fly Nitro card and compress it along with the black powder enough to thumb seat my DD-45-70 500 grain lube sized boolit and then give it a slight pocket safe crimp.  Next, I seat and lightly crimp the said boolit.

Ok, that's worked for me so far.  But my question is this. . . The 4.3cc dipper, well shaken, drops 64 grains of Old Einsford 1½Fg  powder.  The same exact measure of Swiss 1½ weighs 70 grains.

So, is my 45-70 a true 45-70, or is it a 45-64?

Is the Swiss more dense, or am I?

DD-MDA

[Coffinmaker]

I   WON'T    TOUCH    THIS     ONE     WITH     SOMEBODY     ELSE'S    POLE   

COFFINMAKER

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   Do you have a copy of, "Loading Cartridges for the Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle
and Carbine" by J. S. and Pat Wolf? If not, I highly encourage you to do so, from one
BP .45-70 handloader to another!!

         Be Well!

                      M.T.Marfield

[Blackpowder Burn]

Yep, you've just proven to yourself that Swiss is more dense than Olde E.  That being said, Olde E is my "go to" powder.  I'm about to order another case of it now, as a matter of fact.

I can also say with my wife's full concurrence, that I am far denser than either powder................

[w44wcf]

45-70.   My somewhat ancient Lyman 55 measure when the slide is set on 70, dispenses 70 grs. By weight of Swiss, and 63 grs. Of Goex.
To me, that would indicate that some of the earlier black powders had specific gravitiies close to or the same as Swiss.

w44wcf

[Gabriel Law]

Earlier 45-70 cases would actually hold more powder than our modern ones do.  But I concur..Swiss is more dense than GOEX.  I have no experience with OE>

[Ranch 13]

 69 grains OE 2f , winchester cases, 525 gr Baco money bullet.

[PJ Hardtack]

After a bowl full of brass, I mark a piece with an chamber orientation mark and put some PL-II lube on the brass. 

If your bullets are not similarly "orientated" with an indexing mark and you haven't used a gauge to determine wall thickness on your brass, what have you achieved?

A BPCR silhouette pal did that labourious task on 100 45-70 cases for me and I put an indexing mark on one of my bullet moulds. Net achievement - zero, zilch, nada.

I find the task of reloading for my BPCRs labour intensive without doing those things and I'm getting the results I want.

[dusty texian]

Don I think the hand on the trigger had more to do with that Great shooting than the powder, primer or bullet.  Good Shooting Pard . Even if you did not have a full 70gr. LOL

[Ranch 13]

Thanks Ron.
I can get a full 70 grs, in but with that particular bullet 69 seems to be the sweet spot. 72 is where the paper patch bullets start to come alive. While the good ol Lyman postel and the RCBS 82084 shines at an even 70.

[john boy]

Density Test: Three samples locked at 100gr volumetric - powder vibrated and then weighed on a digital scale, accurate to x.02gr:

Olde E Density Test
1.5Fg - 1.0219 avg
FFG - 1.0283 avg
FFFg - 1.0824 avg

Swiss Density Test
1,044   Swiss    1,5
1,049   Swiss    FFg
1,023   Swiss    FFFg
1,094   Swiss    FFFFg
1,096   Swiss    Null-B

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks for all the input fellow 45-70 shooters.  Since I have a good supply of carefully loaded 45-70 ammo, all variables identical except for the powder brand, I'll now have time to do a comparison over the coming season.  I will take notes and report back.

FWIW, my 45-70 rifle is an original Remington rolling block that has been restored by Gerry Wakkinen as a 45-70.  The barrel is a Green Mountain.  The sight is a Malcolm style in a good set of mounts.  Sorry about not using iron sights but since my stroke my vision just doesn't see iron sights like they used to.

Stand by, but don't hold your breath. . . 

DD-MDA

[Coffinmaker]

Awright,

Fer all you Particularly Peculiar Paper Punching patriarchs of pluck and pulchatude perfecting perfectly performing pinnacles of perfection ...... BUNK!!

I are a recovering Bench Rester.  45 pound rifle wid a howitzer per portion barrel, rigid rest, ultra lite set trigger, a scope I could use to map Mars.  Yep Dat was ME.  Sorted cases by manufacturer, by lot number, by the number of times fired, by primer pocket depth, by the way I held my tongue.  Ultra precise micrometer adjusted loading dies.  Super rigid press.  Bullets sorted by manufacturer, by weight, whether they had finger prints and seated by the nth degree.  Unbelievable case prep routine (I don't believe I did all that).  Neck turning, the whole enchilada.

Then one day an Old Fart walked up chuckling to hisself and said, "pick 20 cases at random, twenty bullets at random, set yer powder measure then ignore it, seat yer primers on yer press (I was seating mine carefully by hand) then come back out here with 20 of them super precise things and shot groups at 300 yards.  Measure the difference.  Squat.  Didley and Squat.  Maybe 3/32.  At most.  Heartbeat will give ya more-n-dat.  Where the heck was I going ............. Oh yea.

It's a lot more fun to just cobble up some cartridges and go out and roll some cans. 

Coffinmaker

PS:  Wid a 45-70, make em BIG cans 

[pistol1911]

Some people can complicate a steel ball. I use to be one of them. Life is a lot better now.

[Dick Dastardly]

So, come spring I'll load up and let 'em rip.  It's the shootin' that I crave.  That and the company of fellow shooters.  I'll still take notes and do my best.  Perhaps my actual scores will be less important than the friends that I make. . .

DD-MDA

[Professor Marvel]

Good Luck Dick!

"pick 20 cases at random, twenty bullets at random, set yer powder measure then ignore it, seat yer primers on yer press (I was seating mine carefully by hand) then come back out here with 20 of them super precise things and shot groups at 300 yards.  Measure the difference.  Squat.  Didley and Squat.  Maybe 3/32......

My Dear Coffin -
I understand and have similar feelings, ( I gave up on even trying long ago - a man has to know his limitations!)
but perhaps the difference will be seen at 1000 yards?

My Good Don ( Ranch13) - Congrats! And please keep raising that good beef!

yhs
prf mumbles

[Ranch 13]

Purfessor, thanks. I am retired now, but the beef is in capable hands of a young couple, and they are both determined competitors.

[wildman1]

How about a little thread drift? Ranch have you ever used Goex Cartridge? If you did what did you think of it? What did you shoot it in?
Thanks wM1
PS: How about Goex Cowboy?

[Ranch 13]

Yes I've shot Cartridge, still have a good supply of it. It's an accurate powder, it's is a little dirty but nothing that is unmanageable,( one variation from that is a 50-90 case full of powder and either a paper patch or grease groove bullet, is about like shooting smokeless it's so clean.)
It was a bad deal when Goex dumped Cartridge and Express at the same time, but when they finally got the recipe down on Eynsford, they really hit a hot lick. Now I understand that OE is coming in 1f , which should be a great thing for the big bores and shotguns.

[PJ Hardtack]

I spent a year trying to beat the accuracy I was getting from Silver Box Winchester .308 PSP ammo in my heavy barrel "Tacticool" rifle.
I bought micrometer dies, weighed every charge, sorted brass by make, number of firings, etc., etc. I succeeded, but ....

Then I read an article by Mike Venturino who spent a week end with Clint Smith at Thunder ranch shooting steel silhouettes out to 700 yds with .308 rifles. Clint Smith used range pick up brass, unsorted, untrimmed, thrown powder charges, etc. and never missed a shot.

For BPCRs, I admit to an annual case trimming and I anneal frequently. I use my 'lectronic measure to dispense powder, use a drop tube, compress powder and that's about ti. I've shot good groups both with and without lubed wads, all shooting from x-stix prone.