Historical question on Gov'mnt .45

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

Except that that never happened...

Like I said - it was a Cavalry thing - and they fought mounted.

Any dismounted action took place next to the horse - not running about in brush - the Infantry did that - to make sure it was safe for the Cavalry...

No one's supplied a looped magazine since forever, though they would appear in ARNG inventories up until the early  '70's because the Guard owned that equipment (and they were Class IX) - but as soon as gun shows became really common, those magazines and L-tools and Squad boxes disappeared immediately  - stolen and sold by enterprising Guard guys, along with a myriad of un-dyed tan leather holsters.

The lanyard was worn affixed to the soldier or to his equipment - whichever proved most convenient and offered the most free range of movement without entanglement - sometimes coiled with a rubberband across the loop that came free as soon as pulled - like I said, soldiers figured it out.

The Cavalry regularly trained for dismounted action.  Three of four would dismount and the horses would be linked bridle-to-bridle and retired to the rear where the horse handlers would guard them and be ready to return them to the troopers on command.  They were routinely exercised this way in garrison both to save manpower and to keep the training in place.

During the last major American cavalry action, the Punitive Expedition, I'm only aware of one mounted charge (by Major Howze and units of the 11th Cavalry at Rancho Ojos Azules).  IIRC there were numerous skirmishes during the entire Punitive Expedition.  I'm sure some were mounted; and other dismounted.  So, yes, Cavalrymen can crawl through the brush just like grunts!!! 

I'm not convinced that the "two snap lanyard" was ever actually procured.  I've never seen a photo of one, individually or in use.  I've seen, and the USCA Museum at Ft. Reno has, several examples of single snap lanyards.  The regulations talk about them but were they ever procured?  No one I know of with knowledge in this area can find any evidence of procurement or issue.

SQQ

[St. George]

The Bayonet was carried attached to the standard haversack of the time and would remain so until the last of the haversacks were discontinued after Korea to be replaced by the more familiar M1956 butt pack, whose eyelet pattern still allowed carry.

By Vietnam, the Bayonet was typically carried either on the carrier of the E-Tool or on the web belt.

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

My Dear Major 2

I really must comment on print #1 :



- it is an excellent example of " make sure to extend your  pistol PAST your horse's head" otherwise....

- And I am intrigued by the trooper's method of carrying his bayonet - on his shoulder....

yhs
prof marvel

Don't know about extending the pistol past the horse's head, but my father (of blessed memory) was practicing mounted sabre drill when he was in ROTC, in the early 1920's. He was giving a "column left" signal with the sabre...and he told me he nearly cut the critter's ears off!  His TAC officer told him to forget using the sabre and just use his hand!    Although he was commissioned as an artillery officer in the reserve, he served dismounted during WWII, as division awards officer with the 42nd Inf Rainbow Division.

[Bat 2919]

The lanyard loop is just the handgun equivalent of the saddle ring on a carbine that disappeared with the 1899 Krag.  I agree they both began life as a way to keep the mounted troopers from dropping those high dollar bullet launchers on the trail.  The reality is that today, most countries military machines have dispensed with the horse with the exception of ceremonial and historical demonstration units.  On the other hand the lanyard is more or less ubiquitous with all those countries to this day.

[River City John]

Thanks for all the info, Gentlemen!

RCJ

[RattlesnakeJack]

As for firing forward from horseback, the early US Army M1911 Pistol Field Manuals illustrated the correct method thus:

[River City John]

That literally looks like the trooper is resting his shooting arm on top of his mounts head between the ears? If so, accuracy at the canter would be questionable.
I'm guessing the foreshortening of the image does not show the gap between the pistol forearm and the top of the horse's head.

Cool pic, Grant. Thanks for posting.


RCJ

[RattlesnakeJack]

Also, being the owner of a fine 1914-production pistol, with its original lanyard-loop magazine, I have often pondered the same questions as John.  After seeing this topic, I did a bit of Googling which hasn't yielded a lot of information ... but in one discussion on the militaryhorse.org forum back in 2012 it was noted that early regulations stated:

When a lanyard is used, the snaps are attached to the butt of the pistol and the magazine; the sliding loop is passed over the head and drawn snug against the right armpit. The lanyard should then be of just such length that the arm can be extended without constraint.

(The exact same wording apparently appeared in both the "Cavalry Drill Regulations, 1916, Manual of the Pistol" and as a change to the wording of the "Signal Corps Drill Regulations" effective 16 August 1915.)

The consensus in that discussion (to the extent there was one) was that there was apparently a M1912 lanyard (although few, if any, examples are known to exist) which had two separate hooks, one of which was attached to the loop on the pistol and the other to the loop on the magazine, in accordance with the passage quoted above.  The magazine lanyard loop on the magazine was apparently eliminated fairly early and the M'1917 lanyard, with only one clip, was adopted.  One chap posted a photo purporting to show the two types of lanyard (although the double clip one at top is missing its sliding metal clip which held the two cords together, and they also weren't sure if it was an actual M'1912 lanyard or something else) -



These are lanyards for enlisted men, by the way ... rather than worsted cord, Officer's lanyards were made of leather, which is apparently what is depicted in this representation of an Army officer at the time of the Punitive Expedition.  It does, however, more or less show the loop "drawn snug against the right armpit", as specified in the Drill Regulations -



If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that the magazine in the pistol when holstered may have had a second lanyard clip attached, but that it would be unlikely that spare magazines carried in the belt pouch would also have lanyards attached to them ...

If there was a consensus in the mentioned forum discussion, it was that period photos or other illustrations showing ANY 1911 pistol lanyard in actual use by US troops are rare ...

[RattlesnakeJack]

John, it is my understanding that the arm was definitely kept clear of the horse's head!

[RattlesnakeJack]

I have always liked this Don Stivers painting depicting a charge of the 11th US Cavalry during the Punitive Expedition.   For the most part it shows proper pistol handling under the Regulations  -  holding over the horse's head when firing forward, holding the pistol away from the horse's head as much as possible if firing off to the side, and keeping the muzzle of the drawn pistol elevated when not firing at a target, so that any "accidental discharge"  resulting from the considerable amount of movement would go in the air ...



Mind you, I see no evidence of lanyards! 

[Niederlander]

I believe part of the reason for having the pistol that far forward is to put it in front of the horse's ears.  (Stand forward of the muzzle while a pistol is fired, off to side of course, to see how much louder it is.  Keeps you from shooting your horse in the back of the head, as well.)  Elmer Keith, who did a lot of shooting from horseback as a young man, said it was the best way he'd found to hit something from a moving horse.  So there's that aspect, as well.

[RattlesnakeJack]

It is quite evident that such techniques were not unique to the US Army, nor the 1911 pistol ... these illustrations are from a Russian manual -



Mind you, to bring things back around to the original query ... sort of ... this chap clearly has a lanyard on his revolver!   

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

While later in history, a second pistol charge, and the lase officially recognized charge of the U.S. Cavalry, was the action of the 26th Cavalry, Philippine Scouts, on 16 January 1942 at Morong.  In the paining, below, you can see at least one lanyard in use.  I understand the equipment depicted is correct.  I had the honor of meeting Col. Ramsey on multiple occasions but never thought to ask him about pistol lanyards!



SQQ

[ira scott]

Maybe the CMSA needs to add a 1911 class! (with a magazine change, of course!) It would be a challenge to shoot off a moving horse at the Grand Muster, (my thought is gravity powered, charging down into the canyon!)but I guess it's already dangerous enough mounting a stationary one.

p.s. my sincere apologies to any of my commanding officers

[Quick Fire]

Scotty me lad, it's not mounting the steed that is dangerous, but dismounting!

Quick Fire

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

We do some mounted shooting.  One day I took my 1911 out with a snap cap and rode some patterns just to see what is was like.  I had three "accidental discharges."  That convinced me that I'll never try and carry a loaded 1911 mounted.  Or if I do it won't be drawn until I'm afoot!!!

There are several examples over the years of mounted soldiers shooting their own horse.  The CMSA rules are pretty strict on proper technique as are the rules at the National Cavalry Competition.  I've some international friends who, due to national rules in their home countries, are limited to using Airsoft pistols and revolvers.  Even they have reported "accidents" from time to time.

You can shoot off of any horse once.  But when working with horses one must always remember that Gravity is not just a Good Idea, it's The Law!!! 

SQQ