44spl vs 45lc in winchester 1866?

[Mike]

I do not believe Uberti will ever make a Authentic  replica of any of the early guns, this includes caliber.  there direction is driven by the Action shooting and who orders the guns. Some one would have to order a large number of units for them to make a new gun. So what you have is as close as it gets. This is why I like the older guns even though they still are not ideal. I do own a late third model 1873 put could not justify a 1866 or 1860 and would not shoot them if I could get the ammo. The 73 does get an outing every once and awhile, but I have four repro's 73 too shoot.

You have a chose of caliber with the new guns, mine is 44WCF as it best suits both black and Nitro reloads. Second would be 44 SP.

Have a great day

[Books OToole]

Just heard of a 66  in 44 Special offered @ $600

It's a CAS gun , older Uberti that has the new Bolt parts ...

It's local , I haven't seen it , but I doubt it will stay for sale long 

I certainly would be in interested in a .44 special carbine at that price.

Books

[Crow Choker]

I have a Uberti 66 in 44 Special, got that caliber because that is what my OT and Richards II are calibered in, but I shoot mostly 44 Colts through them using black and Mav Dutchs. Nothing wrong with 45 Colt, have two revolvers of that caliber, but back when I bought the 66 and conversion style open tops, there was still a lot of talk about the bottom of the forcing cone areas of 45 Colt calibered conversion style revolvers cracking, being to thin, wanted them in 44 caliber anyway, closer to original caliber. I've never had any problems cycling 44 Colt rounds through the Mod 66 (Starline brass), working the lever action moderate or fast. I even one time twice loaded the tube with both 44 Special and 44 Colt rounds (both loaded with FF Goex), alternating each round as I loaded. Upon firing thee Ol' Uberti didn't hiccup at all, not knowing what caliber was being injected into the chamber, fired, and ejected. Maybe I got one of those few I've read some write about that have no problems with their cycling, hope so, have been shooting the 66 since '08 with no problems. 

[Major 2]

I certainly would be in interested in a .44 special carbine at that price.

Books

PM sent

just sent you the contact #.... via Email

[Coffinmaker]

Mike is correct.  There are several reasons we will not see an authentic copy of the "Original Rifles."  Although, Way Back in the Way Back (Sherman in the Professor), Val Forget of the Original Navy Arms contracted for some Henry rifles, chambered for 44 Henry Flat.  I don't remember if the ammunition he contracted for was Central Fire or Rim.  No matter, not available anyway.

Anyway, back to Mike's observation, there are several reasons.  First, the market for "Authentic" 1866s and Henrys is minuscule.  As in, there really is no market, excepting a few of us card carrying LOONS.  they would have to be produced at a net loss.  Not gonna happen.  Then we run into the problem of ammunition.  There is NO correct ammunition.  Same problem with ammunition.  No market.  Just the same tiny bunch of LOONS.  Not gonna happen.

A prime example is Taylors and the the Uberti Transitional Henry.  Should have sold like hot cakes.  Nope.  There were only around 270 made and it took Taylors forever to sell them out.  Taylors ain't gonna do it again you bet.  So we're stuck with "not exactly."  We have to make do with what we have as best we can.  I personally think an 1866 in 45 using a custom carrier and C45S cases is the Beez Kneez.
Same same a 44 with custom carrier and 44 Russian cases.  Can work a treat.  Unfortunately, my '66 won't run 44 Russian and Subs/Black.
Oh well.

But ..... A 45 Open Top with C45S cases and either a Henry or '66 with the same cases is pretty close.  Include with that a Hamer Double and your right there.

Coffinmaker

[Crow Choker]

excepting a few of us card carrying LOONS.

Coffinmaker

Ha Ha Heh Heh!!!!!!!!!! I like that description Coffinmaker, add it to my self description when filling out any informational  questionnaires. Now I'm a card carrying LOON besides a Deplorable and a Angry White Man 'Voter'; Clinging to my Bible, Guns, and Religion!!!!  Wear the descriptions with pride and fervor.

Yer right Mike and CM, not enough buyers around for gun manufactures to tool up for firearms to please everybody. Happy they provide what they do to please us Loons!

[Major 2]

Just an FYI  Val Forgett's gun were in both , Center fire and he made some in RF , he also had some proprietary ammo produced.


Here is one of his RF's  ....

[Coal Creek Griff]

I'm not trying to hijack the thread and I'm speaking out of ignorance, but there have been examples of new cartridges being made similar to the original ones.  I'm thinking of the modern .56-50 and the Spencer rifles/carbines to go with it and perhaps the .44 Colt revolvers.  I'd love to see a centerfire .44 Henry round with inside lubed bullets chambered in the Henry and '66 rifles.  I'd buy them.  Doesn't that seem like a possibility?  I agree that if they were rimfire or heeled bullets, there wouldn't be as much market.

CC Griff

[nativeshootist]

Like I said I'm not looking for the closest to the original caliber and I know they'll never make a henry or 66 in 44 rimfire. I was just wondering which would be best. I'm leaning towards the 45 so when I get my cattleman II, I'll have the same cartridge for both. I just couldn't help but feel bad for the 44spl just sitting there while every other lever gun gets bought  it's like a phone well type of deal, idk when uberti will start releasing those new safety hammers for the cattlemens. If they do within the next 6 months maybe I'll get a cattleman in 44spl to go along with the 66, but for now I'm paying for the 45lc one.

[Coffinmaker]

Well .. Well ..
Coal Creek ..... We already have what your looking for.  It just takes a custom Carrier Block from "The Smith Shop."  There is no vast difference between the 44 Henry Flat and the 44 Russian.  Well, once you get past the primer well and consider the 44 HF is also a Balloon Head copper case with sufficient capacity for more powder, the cases are really close.

The 44 Henry Flat was sorta kinda almost half way between a modern .430 bullet and a .45.  If we stop and think about it fora minute, in today guns, we don't actually have a "44."  We have 42s and 43s.  No real 44s.  44 Henry Flat was a real 44.  So we have to "trade off."

Nativeshooter:  In all honesty, the .45 is actually closer to a 44 Henry Flat than a 44 Special.  Now we go back to that custom Carrier Block from "The Smith Shop" again.  In the 45 we can shoot the Cowboy 45 Special case with 200Gr bullets and stuff 17 of the little suckers in a Henry (man, that sucker is HEAVY wid 17 in it).  Trade off again.  The really nice thing, we can get guns for either option.

When I first started chasing an more "authentic" outfit, I went with a 44 Special 1866, a pair of 44 Colt Open Tops (44 Russian in both) and a Hammer double.  Perfect.  Except I was shooting 43s.  I couldn't scare up a 44 Special Henry for love nor money.  The only two times I saw a 44Spl Henry for sale, my gun fund was a mere shadow of it's former self.  Boo Hoo.  So I took the other route.  45 Henry (4 of em now), 45 Open Tops (C45S in both) and a Hammer Double.  Easy Peasy.

Purists would/will scoff at those choices.  OK Mr or Mrs Purist.  Here is YOUR choice.  Pay anywhere from 10 to 20 Thousand for a shooter grade original '66 or Henry .. 5 to 15 grand each for a pair of shooter grade 44 Open tops and then pay from 600 to a thousand bucks for a single (yes, that's ONE, 1) box of 44 Henry Flat and go play.  STOP LAUGHING AND GET OFF THE FLOOR!!

The bottom line is this.  Either selection is "Close Enough" in available modern cartridges.  I happen to like both.  Both are really fun cartridges with Subs or BP (I like APP).  If you can't find C45S on the open market, spend a Saturday and make yer own.  It's time consuming but simple.  Then go out and PLAY.  Oh, and be sure to send a TEXT to Santa 

[major]

Just wondering if anyone has ever made a 66 in 44 Russian.  I would love to have one to shoot blanks I make from 44 mag. brass.  I did convert a 44-40, 66 using a Cowboy shop block but I still have to grind down the very tip of the starcrimped blank to make it cycle.  Which is a lot of extra work. 
When I was doing Civil War reenacting I had a Armisport Spencer in 44 Russian that I was able to shoot the 44 mag starcrimped blanks out of but the extractor in that Spencer was a poor designe and I had a lot of jaming with it.  Now that I do Cowboy reenacting I would love to have a 66 in 44 Russian.

[FriscoCounty]

Nope.  If they did, I would have bought it.  That said, the case capacity of a  modern .44 Spcl is less than that of the .44 Henry Flat.  You lose a significant amount of internal case capacity to modern brass with its solid head and primer.   

See the picture in this thread: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24371.msg317415.html#msg317415

[major]

FC
I am going to have to get ahold of some 44 Colt brass and see if I can make Blanks for my 44-40, 66 with the converted block.  Know where I can get about 20 to experiment with?

[Coffinmaker]

Major

You can probably get a 44 Colt case to go BANG in your 44-40 chamber.  You can probably get it extract (maybe).  But you aren't gonna like the result.  Blow-By.  Huge Blow-By.  The 44 Colt case has no where near the diameter of the 44-40 case and won't seal the chamber.  I will admit .... be fun to watch.  Be sure and wear Safety Glasses that wrap.  Some of the Blow-By will still be burning.  I can't say I recommend the experience.

Coffinmaker

[major]

Coffinmaker
Blow-by is a big factor when shooing black powder blanks.  The carrier block can quickly get filled with crud and lock up when there is a lot of blow-by.  Even with the positive slamdown modification to the lifter lever this would put a screeching halt to the workings of the gun.  Since the blow-by would be extensive using 44 Colt I will stick with my 44mag brass blanks and just continue to trim the points off the star crimped cartridges.  Thanks for the information.

[nativeshootist]

I'll just stick with my 45lc one, easier and it'll go with the cattleman I'm paying for too

[nativeshootist]

Who sells 45 cowboy brass?

[Coffinmaker]

American Cowboy Ammo LLC .... or acaammo.com

C45S Brass isn't listed as a separate item on their web site but it is my understanding they are now also selling reloading brass.  DO NOT quote me, I make no grantees expressed or implied.  So There.

If:

Your unable to get Cowboy 45 Special brass from ACA ...... with a powered case trimmer you can make your own.  Time consuming, mind numbing boring, a gross PITA but very do-able.  Set you case trimer up to the EXACT length as a 45 ACP case and your there.  I do recommend you cut to rough length with a saw and final trim with your case trimmer.  I once made 2500 with my lathe.  I will shoot those 2500 cases till they turn to DUST!!

Coffinmaker

[Mike]

Loonie Mike. Trouble with the Transition
that was produced it was the wrong one in my view. They should of built the one with the 66 loading gate, early flat one. Too late now with reduce interest in these gun, I am told.
Happy New Yea ;Dr.

[nativeshootist]

would be nice if you could buy a flat loading gate for a 66 winchester, instead of making one.