Ruger style handspring

[45 Dragoon]

I have been a staunch advocate for the flat handspring for its feel and "two stage " operation.  It is still the best for feel and function  (once tuned of course) but, I have been messing around with some Walkers and Dragoons that were requested to be "converted " to the coil and plunger hand spring.
 I settled on the combination of a shorter, stronger spring pushing a longer plunger which gives me almost the same feeling  (a little lighter) and enough tension to keep throwby (cylinder over rotation) at bay.

Very cool!! I have since "converted " my revolvers to this setup and changed my El Patron's  factory setup to my design.  It feels more like the S.A.A. that it copies.! The best part is obviously, no broken hand springs in my future (probably wouldn't have anyway but I like the insurance!) !!!

My pics have too much info for posting here but can be seen on my Instagram page.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Coffinmaker]

AH HA!!  Hi Mike.

I am NOT going to say "I told ya so."  Really, I'm NOT going to say "I told ya so."  Oh hell .......

                                                       I TOLD YA SO!!!   

Correct bolt timing.  Correct bolt rise.  Correct bolt fitment to the cylinder.  Bolt block (optional).  Makes throw-by a thing of the past regardless of hand spring.  Coil spring and plunger makes broken hand springs a distant, faint, memory.

                                                           I TOLD YA SO !!   

Da Other
MIKE!!   

[45 Dragoon]

I got cha Bro. Mike but, I'm not unfamiliar with that setup. I've done them for myself and a few others but the flaw is the small amount of tension when the hand is at full extension. That's why all the Ruger S.A.s  have " beauty rings".
It's very easy to demonstrate throw-by  with a Ruger. I've talked many times at length with Mr. Jim Martin about the merits and faults of the spring and plunger.  You loose the ability for the hand to apply the brakes as it is designed to.  Most folks think the hands job is to bring the next chamber into battery but that's only half of its job. The reason the handspring is shaped the way it is (on a S.A.A. ) is to act as a two stage spring.  When at full extension the large  arc of the spring applies enough tension to slow down the cylinder for lockup.  This is explained in the Kuhnhausen book.
The coil and plunger is an excellent idea but not quite perfect either. The frame mounted coil and plunger  is stationary while the flat, handspring rides with the hand.  This arrangement (coil &plunger) puts the least amount of tension on the hand when it needs the most.  My answer is a longer plunger with a shorter and stouter spring.  The setup more mimics the feel and action of the flat spring.

As far as a bolt block being optional, that depends on one's intent for the use of the weapon.  I like to set them up to a higher standard with smaller/ tighter tolerances.  The block removes side movement of the bolt and will also change the timing of the bolt as well since no slop is allowed. It's more purposeful and accurate. A single actions "tuning" ,set up this way, will last much longer than one without.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Pettifogger]

The Ruger beauty ring is caused more by early bolt drop, just like S&W double actions.

[Coffinmaker]

HE HE he he.

I knew/know all that.  However ........ and Sofourth.  I just HADDA pull yer chain anyway    The devil MADE ME DO IT!!     Just couldn't help myself.  Some days I just wake up perky enough to be a snot!!

Ruger beauty rings are caused by Early Bolt Rise as noted by Pettifogger.  As well made as Ruger(s) are, that flaky bolt timing is ....... dumb.  Really super reliable.  But ....... Dumb.  I hate "ring around the cylinder."

Further to show my opinionated self ....... TA DA.  The intent of the original Colt design and operation of the hand/hand spring as a "break" was, as I see it, a solution to less than optimum fit and timing.  Kuhnnhausen not withstanding.  Anyway ............

The end result is to have a smooth, positive and dead reliable gun. 

[45 Dragoon]

Pettifogger,
 I'm sure that a lot of it is as you say and I am fairly new to the Ruger "world " but, the two ROAs I own and those I've worked on as well as a couple of "3 screws " displayed correct bolt drop ( right at the beginning of the approach?) for Ruger. Maybe the post "3 screw" are more susceptible to have early drop? Anyway, the I'm sure the non half cock position is as much responsible for a complete ring as throw-by is .  .  .   In any case, my point was more to the weakness of the Ruger hand situation allowing throw-by more easily than the Colt flat spring.  As stated, I am a fan of the spring/pushrod (lol, cause I use a longer plunger) and think the longevity  aspect is most attractive.

Mike uh  .  .  . I mean da other Mike  uh .  .  .   I mean CoffinMaker!! ,
I know you're a "chain yanker" and I get a kick out of it. I respect your knowledge of these kits we fool with.  However, the "test" that Jim uses to see if the hand spring is doing its job of " stifling" throw-by  is rather good proof that the design is as he says. Remember,  a weak or breaking hand spring can be diagnosed with sudden "throw-by " problems that didn't exist before  (after checking for good bolt spring tension).

Thanks to both of you !

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Pettifogger]

Pettifogger,
 I'm sure that a lot of it is as you say and I am fairly new to the Ruger "world " but, the two ROAs I own and those I've worked on as well as a couple of "3 screws " displayed correct bolt drop ( right at the beginning of the approach?) for Ruger. Maybe the post "3 screw" are more susceptible to have early drop? Anyway, the I'm sure the non half cock position is as much responsible for a complete ring as throw-by is .  .  .   In any case, my point was more to the weakness of the Ruger hand situation allowing throw-by more easily than the Colt flat spring.  As stated, I am a fan of the spring/pushrod (lol, cause I use a longer plunger) and think the longevity  aspect is most attractive.

Mike uh  .  .  . I mean da other Mike  uh .  .  .   I mean CoffinMaker!! ,
I know you're a "chain yanker" and I get a kick out of it. I respect your knowledge of these kits we fool with.  However, the "test" that Jim uses to see if the hand spring is doing its job of " stifling" throw-by  is rather good proof that the design is as he says. Remember,  a weak or breaking hand spring can be diagnosed with sudden "throw-by " problems that didn't exist before  (after checking for good bolt spring tension).

Thanks to both of you !

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Yep, the ROA was the last "three screw" produced by Ruger.  Three screws are different than the transfer bar models.

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks Pettifogger, 
   I have yet to fool with any of the transfer bar systems. What I do know is I'm not real sure that I want too!!! Lol! (Mainly cause they're a click short!)

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Coffinmaker]

Just on a "personal" note.  I was/have/cannot shoot a Ruger well.  Even after all the years working on these fool contraptions, I cannot explain WHY I can't shoot a Ruger well.  I just spray lead everywhere.  I built myself a total of 6, yep SIX sets (glutton for punishment) of them before I gave up and just stuck with what works for me (Colt pattern guns).

I set up a whole pile of Transfer Bar guns.  Not difficult to work with but inherently "loose."  Precision instruments they are not.  I was also an outspoken critic of the early attempts to make Rugers work like Colts.  The early "half cock" guns folks built were outright dangerous.
The guns did not have a "half cock" notch.  Just a ledge, same as full cock.  Think about that for a second or two.  Then some started welding up the hammers and pulling the transfer bar out.  Still without a half cock "notch."  Just that stupid ledge.  Go ahead.  nudge the trigger while spinning the cylinder for high primers.  Erk.

It's my understanding, the Ruger Gurus are now doing the full modification to make half cock an actual "notch."  I certainly hope so.  But, anyway ........

I like "pushrod."  I don't use that silly little Uberti plunger and spring.  I use Ruger parts.  More of a "pushrod" and a stouter spring.  I am curious however.  What size rod/drill are you using to make your pushrod??  And, Who's coil spring??  While what I use works a treat, I like the possibility of a fatter pushrod. 

Like a thief in the night ...... I am always willing to filch the better idea 

[45 Dragoon]

Ha!!

Ok. On Armys/Navy's I use a 7/64s drill and turn down my 1/8" stock to fit.  On the Walker's/Dragoons I step up to a 1/8" drill and fit the pushrod. The "push rods" are almost full length. The springs are some I've had for years (a slew of um) so, I'll have to find a sorce and report.


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Pettifogger]

I use a number 42 drill which is the size for the Ruger plunger.  If I need a longer plunger I just cut the end off the number 42 drill and use that.

[Coffinmaker]

So ........

I use a 3/32 drill and Ruger springs and plungers.  Same Same Pettifogger, if I need a longer plunger I just cut off the end of the drill and polish it up.  Works a treat.

At present however, Pietta (my favorite for a CAS gun) has done a redesign of their Hand spring.  Made of sterner stuff and a new shape.  I've left the OEM Hand/Spring in two of my guns just to see how they last.  Hopefully I won't regret that.  Especially since I tuned the spring.  News at 11 on that.

I may still look into a fatter plunger.  Dunno.  Ruger parts work so well, may not mess with what ain't broke.

Coffinmaker

[45 Dragoon]

Yep, I used to use the bits for the plunger as well but, since I was "sleuthing " for a new concept, I used some 1/8" stock I had and decided to turn down part of it to give the spring a guide. Since my pics won't work here and you guys won't look at my Instagram posts (hint, hint ),  my "pushrods" have a guide to keep the spring from flexing and touching the walls of the hole. I realize it may be overkill but, it's a nicer alternative to the Ruger's longer spring and "mushier " feel.  In a word, it works a "treat"!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Coffinmaker]

HA!!!

I DID SO!!  Went and looked at your "insta GRAHAM.  Atz how I figured out you were using a somewhat fatter and longer pushrod.  Piqued my curiosity it did.  Nice pushrod too.

The Ruger plunger I use also has a "guide" to keep the spring located/centered on the end of the plunger so the spring won't push off to the side and bind in the bore.  Allows it to run really smooth.

Just as an addition for springs.  I really like the Pietta Trigger/Bolt springs for SA's.  Their flat spring is lighter than Uberti's and is not prone to breakage.  I feel a flat trigger bolt spring gives a much crisper fell to the action.  Wire springs feel for to mushy.  Personal thing I guess.  Unfortunately, the Pietta SA T/B Spring won't work in their Cap Guns.  Trigger leg is too short so I have to resort to tuning the OEM T/B spring for Cap Guns.  Still, even with a tuned T/B spring, I have yet to have one fail (knocking on wood).

Da Other Mike

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks for taking a peek at the Instagram post CM!
And, thanks for the compliment on the pushrod.  Mr. Martin is "anti wires" as well for the same reasons we are and even though he likes Ruger's for what they are, he's not a fan of the coil and plunger for the reasons I gave.  I've always liked the idea of the Ruger setup and hoped to come up with at least a "close approximation" of the flat spring feel.  I think I'm close with said  combo.
The amount of movement the pushrod has through the cycle is quite small and a heavy enough tensioned spring seems to do the trick. The tension is more constant with a short spring under load.
  The result is a very consistent, easy spinning  (the stuff you'd expect) except just a little more sound because of the heavier brake action of the hand. Also, a few less rotations (free spinning) than with the Ruger coil and plunger.
It's close enough (to me anyway) to make the jump to a frame mounted "spring and pushrod " setup.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Coffinmaker]

I guess I'm sorta stuck in the last Century (20th) in some respects.  I look askance at those nabobs who persist in giving the cylinder a good healthy "spin" either after they load or after they unload.  All it does is put undue wear on the Star and the Hand.  Except ...... those
same clowns almost always stop a spinning cylinder by coming to full cock and also beating the crap out of the bolt and cylinder notches.
I have to grit my teeth and hold my mouth shut.  I suppose it's the same reason I think the "free spin pawl" for rugers is so .... stupid.
Im my mind (feeble) the free spin is a solution looking for a problem.  If .. one does what one is suppose to do, the way one is suppose to do it, when one is suppose to do it, free spin is a waste of effort and money.  Money better spent sending ME the check.

So much for beating up on Ruger's.  Good guns.  Just not my favorite flavor.  Kinda like Split Pea Soup (barf).

Now we return to our regularly scheduled programming 

[Niederlander]

I just installed a Ruger plunger and spring in an Uberti '51 Navy.  Came out nice, and I shouldn't have to worry about THAT particular spring breaking again!

[45 Dragoon]

That's great Niederlander. The problem is, you "installed" the Ruger problem as well (though some may not recognize it as a problem). The whole point of this thread was how I resolved the problem "to my satisfaction"  and thought it may be helpful to others.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Coffinmaker]

Aw Cummon Mike.

You posted a great solution and then we all discussed and added to it.  Some folks don't have the skills or machines to make their own push-rods.  Nor access to your springs.  doin the best they can.  Which ain't bad atall.

Coffinmaker
Da other Mike

PS:  HAPPY THANKSGIVING

[Pettifogger]

Never ever had a problem with the Ruger set-up in a C&B.