Kirst or R&D?

[Mossyrock]

Kirst or R&D conversion for a '51 Navy?  Support your position.  GO!

[Coffinmaker]

Horsepuckey.  Support your position indeed.  You have two choices for a gated conversion.  Kirst or R&D.  There is no "position."  Just "what do you want."  The R&D is slightly more complex to install than the Kirst.  The end result is exactly the same.  A gated conversion.
Compare cost and flip a coin.  Apples and Apples.  Just remember, with a Uberti as a donor, before you do anything else, insure the barrel to arbor fit.  Otherwise, you'll be spending a lot of time chasing your tail.

Coffinmaker

[Major 2]

I have both, like both ...

[Crow Choker]

While I neither have or shoot either style, I've read a lot on both and would go with the Krist without blinkin'. This is due to the fact that with the R&D it is necessary to take the open top Colt guns apart (pull wedge and barrel) to reload. Would think that alone would induce unneeded and unwanted wear and tear on the gun. Remington's are not as bad, but still require taking the cylinder off and taking the cylinder assembly apart with the R&D. Cutting a loading channel would be worth the effort IMO and buying the needed ejector system with the Krist. Having to take the Colt type's apart all the time would be a major PITA, Rems too as a matter of fact. Anyway that's why I buy ready made conversion revolvers if I want to shoot black powder cartridge rounds in 'old timey' guns. Dollar wise a 'factory' conversion firearm can almost be bought for the price of converting a cap and ball. BUT, ifin I were to convert one of my cap and balls over (probably do my Uberti 2nd Mod Dragoon and/or Pietta 51 Navy 44), I'd go with the Krist system-more shooter friendly and seems more authentic.

[Crow Choker]

Hello Hoof, as others have posted, 'Good to see ya posting again''! Understand what you posted about if the parts are fitted right things should come apart and go back together with no hassle and no wear to speak of. But-we're talking about Italian guns for the most part that aren't made of the hard, quality steels of a Ruger, Smith, or Colt and even if the parts are fitted to a better tolerance than you get out of the factory, I'd  suspect that the softer steels of the 'Eye-talian' offerings may take a toll. I'm careful and fussy with my guns, but I've seen some cap and balls, esp Colts that look like they were used for horseshoe games from being taken apart and reassembled so much, ie hammered on.

What ever the case, I still think the R&D is a slow way to enjoy poppin' off five primers and making smoke. May be all right if someone is loading two revolvers with five shots each and shooting a stage, then has a lot of time to burn before they shoot again, but the R&D IMO is a slow method to shoot a cylinder full of brass cartridge rounds.  A lot of my shooting takes place walking along local rivers and wooded areas, having to stop and take the cylinder out/off of either a Colt or Remington, then disassembling the cylinder, loading, then putting it all back together before I shot is as I posted before, would be a PITA. The Krist system gets my vote  100% over the R&D. I'll steal part of Col Jeff Coopers quote in my thoughts about the R&D, "It's an ingenious solution to a" problem that is rectified better by another product, Krist Konvertors!

Of course I don't have much of dog is this fight I guess, not selling Krists, not planning to get one (at least no present plans), and don't have any, but I do study and read about various methods to customize, convert, and dress up firearms. Just shoot my three conversion types, ROA, and battery of cap and balls and having fun at it. Take care all!!! CC 

[Coffinmaker]

My Turn!!  My Turn!!  Call Me!!  Call Me!!  Hi Gary!!  Being Retired is wonderful .... Just wait.  You'll start to get all those adds for Hearing Aids, Healthcare Supplements, Retirement Condo's, Medicare Add-On's ..... sssss just Wonderful.

However .... Ahem .... Just thought I'd jump back in.  Comment a little on the Cylinder Swapping thing with R & D and taking the gun apart and putting it back together constantly, and the wear and tear thereof.  Bunk and Horsepucky.  HH be quite correct.  THE only undue wear you will run into is from Ill fitted parts being beaten apart and pounded back together.  If the gun has to be hammered apart and beaten back together, I don't care who made it.  Uberti, Pietta, Colt, S&W, Ford or Ferrari, you'll get undue wear.  Properly fitted, NONE.

I build specialized Snubbies.  NO loading lever.  Well, just a stub for looks.  The guns have to be taken apart and loaded/re-loaded on a cylinder loading stand a minimum of six (6) times every match, or on average 3 matches a month, or 18 times every month during shooting season.  Thats at a minimum 126 times a year.  Not counting the additional 3 day matches.  WHAT WEAR??  Three of my Snubbie
pairs are "convertibles."  I have R&D type drop in cylinders (some fitting usually required) so I can switch the guns back and fourth between Percussion Cylinders and Suppository Cylinders (it's a weather thing).  Also fun to be able to do dat.

I have yet you see any "proof" Italian Steel is any "softer."  I use premium files, sawz, power cutters, etc., and find "others" are no different to cut, shape, polish than the Italian examples.  Trust me.  I have been known to attack them ALL with sharp tools.  If your attacking your guns with Sears Premium screwdrivers, $3.50 files and other stuff like that, your gonna have bad things to say no matter the manufacturer.

I could actually stand up on this soapbox for ........... hours and really irritate everybody on the forum ........ (Gawd but I'm bored) but I won't.  At least not today.  I'm not taking pot shots at anyone in particular nor anyone specific.  Neither Gary (HH) nor I speak from the absolute knowledge of the single example we hold in hand.  We speak from having worked on several HUNDRED examples of almost everything.  I always try to separate my personal preferences from professional knowledge.  Usually I succeed.  If I have annoyed someone, I'm sorry (no I'm not) and I will try not to do it again (no I won't).

It's almost New Years.  We get to celebrate it again on January 28th.  Let's make 2017 a better year.  And celebrate the year of the Pheasant (Snicker)

Coffinmaker     

[Crow Choker]

Ahhhh! Hoof and Coff-maker, no offense, I'll agree on some of what you say, but disagree on some. Hoof, your "LOL" on my statement that a R&D is a slow way to pop off five primers and make smoke as you rephrased it that "No matter the type of conversion...takes the same amount of time in the same type of revolver", yep, that's true, but you know what I meant that it was a slower process with a R&D in the unloading/reloading.

As far as the quality of steels in the Uberti/Pietta revolvers, I don't believe and many on the forum have related the fact that the steels are softer. I'm not going to name names, but a lot of them are those with many more posts than I and are regarded as "go to" members when needing information on gunsmithing, at least that's what some of their posts have related over the years. I think the quality is better than it was 20-30 years ago, but could be better. Guess I'm to blame for injecting the hardness of steels on this thread, but the OP's original question was for opinions on the Kirst and R&D. I didn't notice it at the time, but it was originally posted back on Sept 29th. He might have already made his decision and purchased one or the other. I really don't care what someone gets, I stated my opinions so that's that.

Still contend that the R&D is not as a superior product to the Krist due to having to take the cylinder off/out and then take the cylinder apart to unload/load. It might be less hassle in not having to cut a channel on the right recoil shield, might be cheaper to buy, but also still contend having to take apart a Colt each time will down the road lead to wear somewhere where metal meets metal. I personally don't like wedge's to pop out with finger ease. Like em to be under some pressure so they stay put, like em' so a light rap with a small hammer sets em free. None of my wedged Colts have any 'beat' marks whatsoever.

As I stated my personal shooting preference is to walk along a stream plinking, also informal target shooting with friends or meself. Much prefer to be able to pop out empty brass with an ejector rod. Having to separate the three main assemblies of a Colt (Remmys won't be as bad), then take the cylinder apart is not something I desire.  The OP wanted opinions, I gave mine,  HH, hope ya have good luck in your sales of your "Thuer Dropin", sounds interesting. Coffinmaker, you always sound interesting!! Take care boyz!!!
Crow Choker

[Coffinmaker]

Well.  Changing the context.  As Capt. Kirk once said "I changed the Rules."   I base most of what I do/did on preparing a gun for use in CAS applications.  Normally, these changes/mods also give a noted improvement in the overall user friendliness of the specific gun in question.  That said .... da da da da da

Were I considering wandering along a local stream and just playing/plinking, it becomes a different game.  With a pure Cap Gun, I have a half dozen pouches for spare cylinders.  The change over doesn't take long at all.  Quick and easy.  The R&D Cylinder in this context is a gross PITA.  Take it apart (gun and cylinder) punch out the empties, put it back together (after finding the cap plate in the weeds), only to have to do it all over again.  Ugh.  Understanding, from my standpoint, a casual stroll with a Cap Gun is ......... never mind.  If I'm going to wander the local back trails, I'm carrying a Suppository gun.  Dedicated construct or conversion is moot.  Those new fangled suppository thingies are much more convenient than "loose" ammunition.  They're a fad, but a fad that seems to be sticking.  So we come back to .....
R&D or KIRST.  If you ever need customer assistance, and you have to get your customer assistance from R&D, You will quickly determine
to never acquire another R&D product ever in your life. 

When in the past, I have built cartridge conversions for my customers or for myself, I have used Kirst.  I did build one with R&D components.  One.  Never be two.  I prefer Kirst.  Well made, fit, etc.  If you have a problem Walt will make it right.  Simple choice.  Just wish Walt would make a couple of cylinders chambered for C45S cases.  I am planning a pair of 44 Army conversions for myself in this next season.  I'll be using Kirst.

Metallurgy.  I don't see the metallurgy to be a valid complaint.  Not that one is not entitled to one's opine, but most of us will not live long enough for the metallurgy to be at issue.  UNLESS the fitting of the parts has been neglected and parts have Been bashed.  Trust me, you bash the wedge in and out of a colt, your gonna have puckered wailed out wedged slots in the barrel.

My personal gripe.  Especially now that I are mostly retired.  The guns should come out of the factory better.  Just that simple.

Coffinmaker

[Coffinmaker]

Hey Gary (HH)

I forgot.  Building an 1860 (Pietta) conversion, if I cut the barrel even with the Ejector Assembly (First), HOW LONG will be barrel be??

Coffinmaker

[45 Dragoon]

Interesting topic.
The Colts instructions say to " tap the wedge out .  .  .  .  " and in. I wouldn't say that was "finger tight" as Hoof and Coffin say but then, I'm the "new  guy" here so .  .  I do what works for me.

I tend to tap (smack) the wedge in mine and my customers open tops because many of my customers use them for hunting. Not to mention, my own Dragoons with Kirst Gated conversions were the "geniuses" of what became my "service" for the open top and adapted for the top strap revolvers as well. Typically, the horse pistols I service are used for deer, hog and the like and have a normal diet of 230 + gr. conicals with maximum trip.7 loads as a propellant.  If that is the normal diet, "finger tight " won't do. Finger tight won't remove all the clearance issues these open tops have either. The arbor being smaller than the arbor hole (or you wouldn't be able to disassemble/re-assemble) will move and eventually the wedge will work loose if sufficient friction isn't applied. Obviously, I'm talking about an open top with a corrected arbor length. Even with a correct arbor length setup, there are still voids that will allow lateral movement of the arbor. Chamfering the end of the arbor helps.

Of course, the light loads usually fired during cas matches may not upset their finger tight setups, firing continuous full power/ heavy bullets will absolutely.   I don't try to make "magnums" out of these but, I do like taking them to the edge .  .  .  and keeping them there.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

After posting, it was brought to my attention that the instructions say to "drive the wedge out .  .  . "  and that is correct.

[will52100]

http://www.howelloldwestconversions.com/shop/productinfo.cfm?catID=263&productid=803&cfid=7935891&cftoken=a35a4748bea1b57d-4378A8DB-C293-A6C9-43A4240BFB5C2372

R&D makes a gated conversion cylinder as well.  The R&D also has the option for the naval battle scene roll engraving, along with chambering for inside or outside lubricated bullets for lined or unlined bores.  The down side is you need there drill fixture to drill and tap the frame for there breach plate, where as the First is a drop in and locates with a flat bottom on the water table of the frame.

I had an R&D and it looked great, but it would bind up shooting black powder, seems the firing pin would stick in the primer and tie everything up.  It would not do this with smokeless rounds, but the main reason for converting was to shoot black powder.  Also did not like casting or loading hollow base rounds that the Kirst required.  After a lot of frustration I got rig of it.  I do wish Kirst would offer some form of roll engraving, even if it was laser etched or acid etched to make it look somewhat right.  The Kirst ejector works well on the 51 Navy too.  A couple of years ago I was going to give R&D another try, I figure my machinist and gun smithing skills have improved to the point I could likely correct any issues with a sticky firing pin.  Unfortunately I got a bit of a runaround when I called, so I finally went with Kirst and never looked back.

The one thing I've noticed with both R&D and Kirst is the hand wears quicker, it's only engaging part of the ratchet teeth that it was, and both conversion cylinders are a good bit harder and tougher than the original cylinder.  If you got the drop in conversion it'd have full contact with the ratchet teeth, but you'd need to remove the barrel each time you loaded.  On the positive side, it's not a huge issue, and I keep saying I'm going to make a hand out of good material with a proper heat treat, but it's not enough of an issue to make me do it yet.

[45 Dragoon]

Will,
The reason I converted my revolvers was to shoot smokless, not bp. I would think most folks convert for the same reason as the revolvers are already bp shooters.
Regardless of the reasons, I think the Kirst conversions are quite nice and I've been very happy with mine as mine are a permanent setup. In fact, my 45 Dragoons are the most accurate (mechanically and ballistically) S.A. revolvers I've ever owned!

You're correct about the shortcomings of the conversions but until something better comes along,  I would give Kirst the "nod", it's a really good product (no, I'm not affiliated with them).

You don't mention if you have a correct arbor setup but if you do, closing the barrel/cyl clearance down to .003" or less ( my Dragoons are at a tight .002"!) will give you a very clean shooting open top (much more bp friendly!!).

And, you don't have to wait to replace your current hand though.  Just remove the spring and treat the hand that's in it, re-install the spring and your good to go. That and " smokless rounds" should give you a headache free shooting experience.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Crow Choker]

Been gonna reply back on this to clear a few things. My wedges arenot wacked in, I do give them a little tap after inserting them and a little tap in getting them out. Mainly for the reasons Hoof stated. I don't want them backing out, but if push comes to shove, I CAN without the aid of a hammer push them out if need be with my thumb (have to give it a forceful nudge). Have done so when somewhere when I need to take Colt style apart and have no hammer, but I do carry a nylon drift punch in my bag of possibilities and can use it and another object to tap the wedge. What happened to all the other posts by Hoof Hearted and 45 Dragoon, didn't see any thing in them that was deemed objectionable. MossyRock, did you ever get one of the two options you originally posted about? Just curious.

[45 Dragoon]

CC,
No problem that you (or anybody) don't "wack" your wedge in/out. I just pointed out that I do and that Colts own instructions say to "drive" (which to me means more than finger tight) the wedge out/in and that's what I recommend with my service.
  My service is centered around a high degree of tollerance and a close barrel /cyl clearance. A .0025"-.003" clearance set by the finger tight method would close up if the wedge is "driven" in. That is the basis of why I "drive" my wedges in and out and recommend the same to my customers. I didn't write the book on open tops, I just posted what I do/ recommend.
  I go to the range with my converted Dragoons and a '60 Army, run a box or two of "stout" .45C rounds through them, and they have exactly the same clearances they had before the trip to the range (both Dragoons maintain a .0015"  bbl/cyl clearance the '60 is .0025").
The Kirst gated conversions are a very nice product and have performed very well for me and I would recommend them to anyone considering a conversion for their open top. That's about it.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Mossyrock]

MossyRock, did you ever get one of the two options you originally posted about? Just curious.

Yes I did, thank you.  I have actually purchased a couple of Kirsts.  I am working on one conversion, and Hoof has the other.  I would have finished up the mechanics on mine yesterday, but my Dremel battery died.  I still need to defarb the barrel and then rust blue all of the blued parts.

[will52100]

45 Dragoon, I was not having binding issues due to powder fowling, but from recoil.  The firing pin on the R&D would lock itself into the fired primer and jam up the works.  Did not have the issue with smokeless, likely due to low power rounds and the black powder was loaded to the max.  This was with CCI primers, not soft federals.  If I still had the gun I'd likely have fixed it by now.  Arbor was also correct, as was the head space.  Either the firing pin was binding in the firing pin hole, or else it was binding in the primer dent.  Firing pin was likely a little too long and possibly had an undercut or else too tight in the pin hole.  Hopefully R&D has the issue worked out by now.

I've not had any real issues with Kirst, just wish they had some form of engraving on the cylinder as the open tops just don't look right without it.

As for the hand issue, I could very easily heat treat or even case harden the existing hand, but it's not that big of an issue.  It's so minor of an issue, but still not quite rite, that I've been meaning to do something about it ever since Kirst came out and haven't done it yet.  Also, the existing hand and replacements are just a hair short, again, not that big a deal and easily fixed, just haven't bothered to do so.