Need your alternative to Trailboss for 45LC - Titegroup, Unique, ??

[Steel Striker]

Trailboss is my preferred sauce as it more noticeably fills the case, buut it ain't available so much!  I'm not inclined to drive 70 miles for a 5# jug.

Interested to know what your preferred non-Trailboss powder is for CAS loads w/216gr pills.

I'm thinkin' Titegroup & Unique are not [so] position sensitive, but mayhaps others would be better values?  I've found Bullseye is very position sensitive to the tune of 100+FPS.  Thanks Pards.

[Steel Striker]

Update:
Just found this on http://www.reloadammo.com/45cload.htm

Discussion: The old Western Style COLT normally uses big, heavy and slow lead bullets. You can certainly use the Jacketed bullets fine, but don't look for incredible speeds. Bullseye is a bit fast for this big cartridge and I don't especially recommend it, but it will work. Unique is better. Unique and Universal still don't fill the case up as much as a yet slower powder (like No.9, AA5724, H-110/W296, AA5744, and Alliant 2400).

Reference to Powder UP and Powder DOWN is to actually shake the gun in an up or down position before firing each round and gently bring the gun to the horizontal and shooting. In the large .45 case, a large difference has been noted in speeds. Normal powders vary quite a bit and also have a larger spread between shots. For example, No. 9 with 15 gr.* which is just a little over maximum Colt loads (but mild for Ruger) shot an average of 880.2 fps pointing up and 708.0 fps pointing down, but the spread between shots was 146 fps and 235 fps respectively.

With Accurate's 5744 the speeds with 17.0 were 853 fps UP and 802 DOWN, but spreads were much better at 45 fps and 16.6 fps respectively. So both the up and down positions were closer in speeds and the spreads were noticeably closer. I would conclude this powder is much more consistent in speeds than others that I have tried in the .45 Colt.

Be very careful using the loads for Ruger and T/C (Thompson Contender) as these are maximum loads, even for these strong guns. A Modern rifle should handle these loads equally as well, such as the Winchester Model 94. Some people have tried to load the .45 Colt to levels of the .44 Magnum. Bad Idea! If you want those speeds and power, buy a .44 magnum.

I guess I've just narrowed things down to Titegroup or Unique.  Pls. chime in...

[Sagebrush Burns]

Unique and W-231 have worked well for me for years.  I've also tested AA#5 and HS-6 and they seem to be just fine.

[pony express]

I've used Titegroup in .45 Schofield cases before with good results. Don't have a chronograph, so I can't tell the velocities or anything.

[Crow Choker]

I've had good results with both Unique and Titegroup. One thing that is favorable with Titegroup is that Hodgen says that it is not position sensitive, ie in small charges and/or in large cases (such as the 45 Colt). The amount you use ignites well when the charge of powder isn't all contained in the bottom of the case by the primer. I've used Titegroup in 38 Spec, .357 Mag, 45 acp, 44 Special, 45 Colt, and plan to use it in 9mm. It is a real versatile powder, in the same category as Unique. Check out Hodgen's info and load tables for it. It's become one of my 'go to' powders.

[Mike]

Titgroup work for me in my 44's and 45.

[Abilene]

I used to use titegroup for .44 and .45, not so much now.  Works well, but it makes very "snappy" loads, fast rise-time I guess.  Made the screws on my pistolas back out more than other powders  .  I like Clays a lot, economical, easy to find, clean.  W231 also.

[Cliff Fendley]

I've always had better accuracy with Titegroup to be a very accurate powder and always kept at least a few loaded for side matches and such. A friend recently did some testing by sandbagging various cowboy guns and different powders and found Titegroup and Unique were in a dead heat for being the two most accurate.

Not that it really matters too much for CAS but I'm almost out of Trailboss and got a deal on a case of Titegroup last year so I'll be loading Titegroup for the next few years.

[pony express]

I've been using Trailboss for years, but always for "Cas" level cast bullet loads in milsurp calibers, never used it for any pistol calibers. For pistols, it's been Titegroup, Bullseye and Unique mostly. That might change since I bought a 5lb bottle of Trailboss.

[Steel Striker]

Cliff Fendley:

Thanks for your response.   Would you characterize either Titegroup or Unique as "snappy" or "quiet" in CAS type 5gr loads w/200gr pills?

[Montana Slim]

While I don't lod 45 Colt, I load 45 CS and a whole bunch of other bore pistol cartridges, plus some smallish ones (shhh).
I'd choose between clays, W231, Titegroup...and....700X (favorite). I rarely go to Unique.
Buy what you can find !!

Slim
Ain't see Trail Boss in quite some time (exceptin' for the empty can on the store "display"). Could just be one more reason I haven't even tried it.

[Hans Christian]

Update:
Just found this on http://www.reloadammo.com/45cload.htm

Discussion: The old Western Style COLT normally uses big, heavy and slow lead bullets. You can certainly use the Jacketed bullets fine, but don't look for incredible speeds. Bullseye is a bit fast for this big cartridge and I don't especially recommend it, but it will work. Unique is better. Unique and Universal still don't fill the case up as much as a yet slower powder (like No.9, AA5724, H-110/W296, AA5744, and Alliant 2400).

Reference to Powder UP and Powder DOWN is to actually shake the gun in an up or down position before firing each round and gently bring the gun to the horizontal and shooting. In the large .45 case, a large difference has been noted in speeds. Normal powders vary quite a bit and also have a larger spread between shots. For example, No. 9 with 15 gr.* which is just a little over maximum Colt loads (but mild for Ruger) shot an average of 880.2 fps pointing up and 708.0 fps pointing down, but the spread between shots was 146 fps and 235 fps respectively.

With Accurate's 5744 the speeds with 17.0 were 853 fps UP and 802 DOWN, but spreads were much better at 45 fps and 16.6 fps respectively. So both the up and down positions were closer in speeds and the spreads were noticeably closer. I would conclude this powder is much more consistent in speeds than others that I have tried in the .45 Colt.

Be very careful using the loads for Ruger and T/C (Thompson Contender) as these are maximum loads, even for these strong guns. A Modern rifle should handle these loads equally as well, such as the Winchester Model 94. Some people have tried to load the .45 Colt to levels of the .44 Magnum. Bad Idea! If you want those speeds and power, buy a .44 magnum.

I guess I've just narrowed things down to Titegroup or Unique.  Pls. chime in...

I think they are looking at full power loads. Light CAS loads are a different animal.

Titegroup and Trailboss are at two ends of the spectrum. You will find pros and cons with each. Unique will be at its best with full power loads, especially with light bullets.

Have you considered Red Dot? It's fluffy for a good case fill, but not as fluffy as Trailboss.  I had good accuracy with it in 45 Colt with 225 gr bullets...

700x is my most popular CAS powder, but I normally use 240 gr bullets. It has had good availability in my area.

[Crow Choker]

I should have mentioned Red Dot also in my post. Have always had good results with it, still use it, and plan on keeping using it. As Hans C. penned, it has large fluffy flakes, not as filling as TB, is accurate, and I have found it to be clean burning. Use it with 230-255 grain  bullets. In my area it is always on someone's shelf and is a good price. 700X is a good powder, but I've always thought it to be a little dirtier burning than any of the rest of the powders I've used for 45 Colt. Hans is right about Unique being better for more 'full power' loads.

[rickk]

Unique has been used in the 45 LC for about 115 or so years now.

It also works in just about any straight-ish walled pistol cartridge made (and then some).

If you want to reduce the number of powers you have hanging around, Unique will help you meet that goal.

[Crow Choker]

Unique has been used in the 45 LC for about 115 or so years now.

It also works in just about any straight-ish walled pistol cartridge made (and then some).

If you want to reduce the number of powers you have hanging around, Unique will help you meet that goal.

I'll agree with that, that's why it's UNIQUE!!!!!
2400 is another of my "If I had to resort to only 3-4 powders!!

[Professor Marvel]

Greeetings my Good netizens -

I myself have been using only 3 powders: Goex, Pyro ( ick, only when I can't get BP ) and Unique. I picked up some APP
and Black MZ recently to check out what all the excitement is about, but haven't gotten time to get into the countryside yet.

I have been using Unique pretty much in any carrdige, using moderate published recipes, with no problems. This includes the "magic" ~ 10 grains of unique in almost any modern rifle cartridge.

However, I discoved an old thread on another forum involving some of our players here, showing pressure curves measured by
Sherman Bell. This thread was quite interesting, and I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

BTW pressure curves posted there show that  in a 45-70,  TrailBoss with a 500gr cast bullet  has a sharper spike than IMR4759 with a 410gr cast bullet.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27410&hilit=Pressure+Spike+in+Smokeless+Powders

here is a snip from KirkD , but be aware I am not offering advice:

snip---------------------------
This has been discussed in detail in the past. A search might find it. In general, smokeless powders like Blue Dot and 2400 give approximately the same pressure curve as black powder FOR THE SAME VELOCITY AS BLACK POWDER AND THE SAME BULLET AND BULLET WEIGHT. Smokeless powders with a faster burn rate like Unique, Trail Boss, Bullseye, etc. will give a higher, sharper pressure spike. Slower smokeless powders like IMR 4227, IMR 3031, RL-7, etc. will give a lower, rounder pressure spike. Sherman Bell had some good articles on this a few years ago in the Double Gun Journal. Others have posted pressure curve comparisons. Some examples are below:

In the above data, he used a 410 grain bullet with IMR SR4759. To compare apples to apples, you should increase the peak pressure by 25% to compare with the 500 grain bullet. This will raise the peak pressures to be pretty much identical with FFg and still lower than FFFg, but higher than Fg. It will also reduce the 'rise' (the length of the curve).
endsnip---------------------------

So, of course, I had to go find out about Mr Bell myself  - turns out Sherman Bell writes ( or used to write)  for The Double Gun Journal

Sherman Bell's pressure testing published in The Double Gun Journal Summer 2002 "Finding Out for Myself, Part VI, Smokeless vs Black", p.19, and summarized in Volume 17: Issue 4, Winter 2006, p. 39

also, one can study some of chuck hawks interesting data on burn rates  at
http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_burning_speed.htm

either way, this is getting me interested in pricing the newer ( cheap) chronies and pressure thingies...
or finding someone who has them...

yhs
prof marvel

[Coffinmaker]

First a Caveat.  I don't shoot much smokeless anymore.  I have several unopened jugs of Tightgroup that are probably three - four years old.  Gathering dust under the bench.  But ......

I don't much like Trailboss at all.  I found it to be some dirty and when paired with petroleum base oils, it tended to build up a real gummy residue.  So ....... I gave what I had left away.

My "go-to" powder for smokeless loads was (and still would be) Tightgroup.  Not position sensitive in the case with light loads, not temperature sensitive in light loads until the load was cap gun light and the teamps were down under 40 degrees.  I found it to be a very good powder in everything I shoot.  45 (all cases), 44 (all cases) and 38s.  When loaded light, still gave a nice manly BARK as opposed to a mouse fart.  Care must be taken as Tightgroup does NOT FILL the case.

Now, my alternative to Trailboss (Icky foo) is ...... TA DA ..... APP.  Fills the case, nice BOOMBA, lotsa smoke and easy cleanup.  If your looking for the funest alternative to Trailboss, mosey on over to the DARK SIDE.  Lots more FUNER!!

Coffinmaker

[Steel Striker]

Prof. Marvel, Coffinmaker, et al;

Thanks for your studied opinions.  These posts are going in my 3-ring shooting journal for continued reference.

I appreciate everyone's valuable time spent here.  I'm "good to go" now, mystery resolved!   Time to make some smoke & noise!

[Blackfoot]

I am quiet happy with Red Dot. ( I anneal the mouth of the .45 Colt cases to keep things a little cleaner.)

Blackfoot

[Cliff Fendley]

Cliff Fendley:

Thanks for your response.   Would you characterize either Titegroup or Unique as "snappy" or "quiet" in CAS type 5gr loads w/200gr pills?

No