Black powder and Pyrodex comparison

[Cliff Fendley]

I had some old ammo a while back loaded with Pyrodex and was shooting it up. I decided to do an experiment after noticing the rapid effects on the brass after shooting the pyrodex loads. This was a firm reminder of why I quite using Pyrodex a long time ago.

Both groups were fired in a Cimarron Model P 44wcf revolver and the revolver was cleaned between each firing.

Cases were new Starline.

Cases on the left were KIK 2f black powder.

Cases on the right were Pyrodex P.

Both groups were fired, deprimed and dropped in separate jugs of water overnight.

The photo is after dumping out the following day and allowing to air dry.


Just overnight the black powder brass rinsed off fairly clean. The Pyrodex brass already had a caked on residue forming. I have had BP brass get that way but it takes BP brass much longer, usually weeks or more to get that kind of effect.

Another thing I noticed. I did not bother to chronograph the loads but comparing recoil it seems the Pyrodex loads certainly had more energy than the 2f BP. 3f BP loads seem more comparable. So The Pyrodex may be a good choice for powerful hunting loads and such but a person just can't hesitate in cleaning the gun immediately.

I also shot up some old APP loads and noticed it seemed to have the least recoil but the APP shot cleaner than Pyrodex or Black Powder. If I had to shoot a BP substitute I would be shooting APP. I was actually quite impressed with it.

[Pettifogger]

Several years ago I flew from Phoenix to New England for the Great Nor-Easter.  Since my ammo weighed more than the allowable 11 pounds to take on the airplane, I mailed it to a friend.  I never particularly liked Pyrodex but did use in in shotgun shells.  Not to bad here in a dry climate.  Up there the guns started rusting about four seconds after shooting them.  At the end of the match I had several boxes left over and didn't want to ship them back so I tried to give them away.  I literally could not give them away.  The locals just plain did not like and would not shoot Pyrodex in their guns.

[Coffinmaker]

Pyrodex ....... Sux

Coffinmaker

[Flatbush]

That's an incredible difference!

[Cliff Fendley]

Yes and the effects are even worse on your guns if not cleaned immediately and VERY thorough.

Besides the corrosion effects probably my biggest disdain for Pyrodex to this day is how they lied years ago when it was introduced by advertising how much less corrosive it was than Black Powder. I learned the truth the hard way. It about ruined one of my guns overnight in Kentucky humidity after a late evening hunt.

[Thumb Buster]

I had bought a pound of that "stuff" when it first came out for use in my .50 caplock T/C rifle.  I had fallen for the 'less corrosive' line.  I went home from the range and cleaned the rifle as I usually do except four days later when I did a follow-up patch I got a good amount of rust.  That was the last time for me and I still have that container in my powder box...just sitting there...as a reminder that old BP is the true gun powder.     

[Coffinmaker]

It's my understanding, even if spread carefully before a rain, it still makes LOUSY fertilizer.

Coffinmaker

Makes your plants rust.  It does so.

[Montana Slim]

Since part of my rating system includes the "flame" factor, I give pyrodex one star more than APP (for my use).but they're all a few notches down from the real stuff. But for my dad, I recommend using APP for his .41 Colt Thunderer. Thin cylinder walls & he's not really into shooting/cleaning BP as well as he used to.

APP gives plenty of smoke, but flames, color, fragrance & taste just aren't the same.

So, basically dedicated nuts like me prefer real BP. Gee, I think I need to go pick up a can or two just from thinking about it.
Besides my "new" self-cocking Colt takes a lot of powder.

Slim

[hellgate]

It is my impression that Pyro has a similar sound (a BOOM not a POW) to BP but the other subs sound like smokeless in the shotgun.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

 I would advise any one shooting any of the substitutes except APP to read carefully Prof. Marvels post on the Powder Room section carefully.
The truth is there so pay attention and not ruin an expensive hard to replace gun.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Cliff Fendley]

It's my understanding, even if spread carefully before a rain, it still makes LOUSY fertilizer.

Coffinmaker

Makes your plants rust.  It does so.

No good fer fertilizer. Yur cuttin harrow'l rust solid fore ya can get it disc in.

[Major 2]

Pyrodex ....... Sux

Coffinmaker

as bad as it is..... the pellets are just criminal  

[Ben Beam]

I was reading about this and found this post by Mike Daly, the customer satisfaction rep at Hodgdon:

Ok, here's the deal. I get this question 50 times a year and they all originate from web sites. The problem with the internet is that there are so many "experts" who really have no knowledge but want to portray themselves as the keepers of all knowledge as long as they can hide in the anonymity of the internet.

Yes, Pyrodex contains pecrhlorates.

No, they do not etch the barrel at some minute level so small it can only be viewed under a full moon while wearing a wizard outfit.

NASA and the DOD both have tested and used Pyrodex over the past 35 years. Their testing contradicts the "experts" on the internet. They found Pyrodex to be no more corrosive than black powder.

Cleaning of Pyrodex residue is the same as black powder. No petro solvents, only water based or polar solvents. Soap is great. Windex with vinegar is great, Ballistol is the best thing for cleaning muzzleloaders I have ever seen, with all powders.

I don't know how to make it any more plain, no special problems with Pyrodex. Shoot the gun, Clean the gun completely and you are just fine.

Those who want to continue to spew about their "expert" knowledge about the corrosiveness of Pyrodex and how it magically micro-pits barrels are going to continue to spew the same old tired stuff. How could the continue to be the anonymous "expert" hiding on the internet if they gave up. That is just the nature of the internet. I (we) are bound by truth, the "experts" are bound by their imaginations.

I hope this helps. I would say that it may be best to just give the best advice ever, "When you want to know about a product, call the maker. 800-622-4366

I was hoping to find some comparison tests online with BP vs Pyrodex on the guns themselves, but no luck. Sounds like it definitely makes a difference in brass, although Photobucket ate the photo.

[Professor Marvel]

I was reading about this and found this post by Mike Daly, the customer satisfaction rep at Hodgdon:

I was hoping to find some comparison tests online with BP vs Pyrodex on the guns themselves, but no luck. Sounds like it definitely makes a difference in brass, although Photobucket ate the photo.

Read this:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56362.0.html

and this
http://www.chuckhawks.com/doc_white2.htm
note that Doc White said:
"DOC: The residues left from black powder combustion include sulfates, carbonates and nitrates, all in the presence of water due to hygroscopicity of the fired residue. The sulfates can form sulfuric acid, the nitrates nitric acid, and the carbonates the weak carbonic acid. All can eat away at metal if left long enough. Fortunately, the amounts left in the barrel are usually small and relatively weak, and are only a problem if left for a long time. This is in addition to the rusting effect of the water, which is the worst problem, relatively speaking.

Pyrodex is basically black powder enhanced with chlorates (an old time trick used as early as 1800), which adds the problems associated with hydrochloric acid. This acid is the reason Pyrodex can etch stainless barrels. The result is, as more water vapor is thrown into the residue, the worse the problem; not only because of water-induced rust, but also from acid etching."

note that acid etching is peculiar to Pyrodex, and not Real Black.

and this:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=43136.0

---
In fact, I will repeat what I wrote in 2012:

Please remember that

1) Mike works for Hodgen and is an official spokesperson - an official spokesperson for a company has an obligation to defend that companies' products.

2) Your mileage will vary based on region and humidity.

3) your experience in an easy-to-clean cartridge arms for one year of use is far different from the experience of Hivernaughts
   who used it in closed breech muzzleloaders, Please do not deride or belittle the actual reported and documented experiences
   of others.

4) the issue of Pyro corrosion vs  BP corrosion is more correctly compared to the difference between the effects of hydrochloric acid vs sulfuric acid: both are corrosive, but in different ways.

5) Whilst I prefer real BP, I do have and will use Pyro if I am short of BP and availability of BP is uncertain - I then use  Pyro in cartridge guns and or C&B pistols and make a concerted effort to meticulously clean my smokepoles immediately with very hot soapy water, and oil them thoroughly with plain old oil.

6) I can and do take except to Mike's following statement:

Mike Daly wrote:
>Those who want to continue to spew about their "expert" knowledge about the corrosiveness of Pyrodex and how
>it magically micro-pits barrels are going to continue to spew the same old tired stuff. How could the continue to be the
>anonymous "expert" hiding on the internet if they gave up. That is just the nature of the internet. I (we) are bound by
> truth, the "experts" are bound by their imaginations.

Mike Daly should be ashamed of such  Marketeer BS and semi-anonymous derision.

I myself have been been in discussion with chemists and gunmakers who investigated corrosion caused by  Pyro.

They ARE experts in their fields. I do not believe Mike has the background in chemistry and metallurgy that these gentlemen have.

I myself saw the photos and "microscopic" photos of the crossections of  barrels and breeches that were dissected in their work. The pattern of corrosion caused by the perchlorate residue in Pyro was clear and evident, and in fact can be differentiated from corrosion patterns from BP. Pyro corrosion  was "finer" and more rapid than corrosion caused by BP. The facts and data  are clear and irrefutable. This led several well known makers of Very High End custom flintlock rifles to declare that  Pyro should not be used  in their rifles.

If Mike wishes to call me a liar and a scoundral to my face I will gladly entertain the encounter, and I will come prepared with physical data and evidence and expert testimony that will stand up in any court in a Libel case. BTW I myself  am no stranger to legal actions regarding strict and limited liability, tort law, contract law, patent law, and libel law.

Microscopic cross-section analysis is not new and it is not the hoodoo that Mike Daly seems to think. It is widely used in materials analysis, failure analysis, and there are many experts in the field who can be called upon as "expert witnesses" to testify under oath in a Court Of Law. Those who are familiar with the subject matter in a particular field often become so expert that they are able to identify a particular corrosive agent by the pattern it leaves in a particular material.

The Perchlorate Residue corrosion from Pyro is nothing new - that residue was the problem with "corrosive primers" over 100 years ago.

It has been demonstrated that the perchlorate residue from Pyro (which is the corrosive culprit) can be difficult to dissolve - it will not dissolve in modernisch fancy solvents but is fairly readily removed with hot soapy water, and lots of it.

I will once more offer my small treatise on the topic:

real Black Powder contains sulfur and potassium nitrate and charcoal. On combustion we get
gasses (which propel the bullet) and byproducts of incompletely burned material (fouling).
Both are corrosive due to the resultant chemicals formed. Others more conversant than I in the exact chemistry may wish to chime in.

Pyrodex contains, among other things Potassium Perchlorate. That is the material with which
people take issue. Unfortunately, contrary to Mr. Daly's protests,  it *is* Chemical Science!
But any chemist (and any advanced chemistry student) who is sufficiently schooled in
metallurgy and  corrosion can understand and explain it.

It has been proven in various scientific studies that when fired in a gun, the residues from
Potassium Perchlorate (whether via "corrosive primers" or via any powder mix), are
particularly corrosive to steel (not so much to wrought iron) at a microscopic level
and is particularly difficult to stop once this corrosion gets started. This was very
well known in the early 1900's and became the topic of the "corrosive primers" discussions of the time.
Anyone who has been around firearms for more than a few years should be familiar with this.

It is because of this particular "perchlorate corrosion" that people are upset.

The big advantage In My Opinion to Pyrodex is that it is not classified in the same manner
as BP, and thus is treated in the same manner as Smokeless for transport and storage. To quote
my Chemist friends, "Potassium perchlorate is a low-order detonating compound.
But when you mix it in with a bunch of other things it is now longer capable of going low-order detonation." (Thus it is less sensitive than BP)

Also "Compared to potassium nitrate, the potassium perchlorate simply provides more oxygen in a
shorter period of time." so you need to use less Pyrodex than BP *BY WEIGHT*

- Both BP and Pyrodex are corrosive. But not in the same way.

- Both can be cleaned - but one must pay attention to the nasty details.

the big issue is that if perchlorate salts are missed during cleaning the resulting corrosion is initially subtle but aggressive.
Further, depending upon humidity, Doc White ( see above) has written that Pyrodex can and does cause the "etching"
that Daly claims does not exist.

It is unfortunate that "back in the day" Pyrodex was in fact advertised and marketed as
a BP substitute that did not require the kind of cleaning that BP needs. That was both
unfortunate and wrong, and we can blame the "marketeers" and their hype. In fairness
to the marketeers it is nothing different than advertizing that "Kedz Sneakers make you run
faster and jump Higher" or that "Koldgate toothpaste makes your smile whiter".

However the fact remains that Perchlorate residues are corrosive, in a manner different from BP, and if left uncleaned
can cause serious damage, and that microscopic chemistry is in fact at play.

Ah one more tidbit:
Mike Daly Wrote:
>NASA and the DOD both have tested and used Pyrodex over the past 35 years. Their testing contradicts the "experts" on the >internet. They found Pyrodex to be no more corrosive than black powder.

I have searched for any such tests, documentation, reference, or even any mention to any such tests of Pyrodex and corrosiveness, and have found nothing.

I have access to nearly every non-classified DOD and NASA doc ever published and have not found anything.

I challenge Mr Daly to provide those test documents, if they in fact exist.

yhs
prof marvel

[Professor Marvel]

One Last thing.

I freely acknowledge that Mike Daly has done a lot for Hodgon and the shooting community, and is active and supportive of the shooting sports and CAS.

However, It seems pretty clear he does not have a background in chemistry, and should be careful when getting into a technical discussion specifically regarding chemistry:


snip---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Boy
11-04-2010, 03:35 PM
Martin, Mike Daly provided you with 'words' about Pyrodex, but he missed some key points ...
1. Pyrodex is not black powder, it is classified as a sodium benzoate substitute for black powder and is not "Pyrodex is a modified black powder". Black powder is a mechanical mix of potassium nitrate - sulfur and charcoal only. Here is the original patent formulation of Pyrodex which has been modified slightly but still the primary ingredients are the same:
45 parts of potassium nitrate
9 parts of charcoal
6 parts of sulfur
19 parts of potassium perchlorate
11 parts of sodium benzoate
6 parts of dicyanamide   
1 to 4 parts of water

2. Pyrodex is to be charged on a volume basis only to a BP charge, not by a scale weight charge because it is 30% lighter than black powder

3. Since wads in a shoulder necked case are a NO NO (below the shoulder), Hodgdon is wishy washy in their words using fillers for shouldered neck cases and the Beaumont and Vetterili both have shoulders ... if you need to use a wad for filler - use florist foam. It's the stuff florists stick the stems of flowers into when they made a floral arrangement

4. He did not reference you to the published loading notes for Pyrodex, which I recommend you read and use as your guidelines ... http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html
---------------------------------------------------------------


And here is a quote from one of the so-called "anonymouse internet experts", aka Bill Knight, aka "The Mad Monk" which shows how Mike Daly minimized or ignored the issue of Pyrodex producing Cyanide Gas:

https://www.camp22.org/black-powder-pages/safety-of-black-powder-vs-substitutes

The following is a message board post from Bill Knight, a retired chemist who worked in the black powder industry. The post was forwarded by Bob Maerdian.[/cryout-pullquote]

Question from John R: Many game departments, game commissioners, and other people in official positions believe that the black powder substitutes are safer than black powder.

A case in point; the Boy Scouts of America insist that if and when Boy Scouts shoot muzzleloaders, only black powder substitute is used.  This all goes back to when game officials in every state were convinced by those wishing to use black powder substitutes for hunting that it should be legal because it was safer.

The only reason this came about is because it is more difficult to ignite and therefore safer. Totally stupid reasoning but as long as people can be convinced (with any reason), that's all that counts. You have just discovered  one of these "stupids" but don't try to convince those who continue to regurgitate the stupidity.

Some people have minds like concrete, thoroughly mixed and permanently set.

Bill's answer:  I am sort of surprised that Chas has not closed this discussion down since it involves black powder subs which is a taboo after the grace period expired.  But I hope that Chas lets this one through Because a valid point has been raised.

The idea being that BP is so treacherous to handle.

Back some years go Chuck Dixon, of Dixon Muzzleloading, began to run pre-flintock season classes for the public. I was asked to speak on the safe handling of BP. The crowd came through in groups, moving from one instructor to another.

I had talked to one group. When the question period was over they moved on to the next "station". One guy stayed. He sort of stood out. He certainly was not the usual flintlock deer hunter.  He asked why I had not mentioned Pyrodex. I told him that since it did not work alone in a flintlock I ignored it in my talk.

He went on to tell me that he is a firearms instructor for the Valley Forge Boy Scout Council. He asked me what was in Pyrodex. So I began to rattle off the formula. When I got to the 6 parts of dicyanamide a look came over his face like he had been gut shot. At that point I knew he had a background in chemistry. I jokingly asked him if the rug rats parents might not be too keen on having the kids exposed to cyanide fumes. His response, "Don't even joke about that!"

His Boy Scouts were shooting on a covered firing line range with a low roof. He was upset that there was no warning on the label about the possibility of cyanide fumes being given off by the firing of the powder. Turns out the guy is a chemistry professor at a college near Philadelphia and is knowledgeable on cyanide compounds and how they behave.

He was going to talk to the powers to be and see if he could go to black powder with the scouts.  I never heard any more on it but he was sure upset with the idea of the covered range and the kids breathing the fumes from the firing of the guns with Pyrodex.

Now, if you go back to the old cinnamon.com black powder list, Fred Miller got into it with Mike Daly from Hodgdon Powder. Mike tried to make a jerk out of Fred on this thing about the dicyanamide in Pyrodex. Then I waded into it. While I worked in a lab in a chemical plant, I was often drafted to work out in the polymerization reactor area. Sometimes just doing physical labor. One day I had to restack a skid of bags of dicyanamide. Big red warning labels on the bags: "Avoid fire or flame. When heated to decomposition emits highly toxic fumes of cyanide."

If used in the open with "adequate ventilation" the fumes are not an issue. But in a poorly vented area they are a problem. I learned that the hard way in the basement doing flash testing on steel and brass plates for corrosion work. The black powder samples were not a problem.  After flashing a few samples of Pyrodex, I ended up outside feeling ill. I had industrial exposure to the vapors of acrolnitrile which when metabolized yields cyanide, so I knew what the feeling was and its cause. Then I checked the Pyrodex patent.

But anyway, the idea that the subs are so much safer than black powder is utter nonsense. When 777 came out, I ran some open flashing tests on it, and quickly spoke to a guy at the ATF bomb squad lab, telling him he better look at this one. Open flashing [of 777] is as fast and as violent as with black powder. The ignition temperature difference is doo-doo.

Bill K.

endsnip---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ben Beam]

Wow, I wasn't expecting such a thorough response. Thank you for taking the time. I was not trying to belittle anyone. As noted, I was doing a search trying to find info on whether Pyrodex was as corrosive as claimed, or whether it was an old wive's tale (which the internet is rife with), hence the search for actual testing. I was surprised by Mike's response, since it ran counter to everything to was reading elsewhere, which is why I posted it. The information you gave is very helpful, but I want to emphasize that my intent was not to argue or disagree with anyone, I know *nothing* about this. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post, it's very helpful. Looks like I'm going to have to search harder for a local store that sells actual BP and not just the subs.

[Ranch 13]

If you can't find a local dealer handling black powder, then you'll likely end up doing what the rest of us do, order powder from Powder Inc, Grafs, or Buffalo Arms.

[Coffinmaker]

Ben Beam,

There are some "good choices" available to you.  I personally hate "Parrots."  The type that roost in trees and poop thru feathers while screeching endlessly and those people, who will read or hear something that is completely out of left field and then repeat it as some form of "gospel."  Understanding, those human "Parrots" have no actual personal knowledge of the subject.  Simply parroting someone else's drivel.

Anyway.  From personal experience, Pyrodex and 777 are corrosive.  PERIOD.  APP and Black MZ are considerably less corrosive and more convenient to use than "others" and even BP.  APP and Black MZ require no lubricants of any sort while shooting and the residue (fouling) is not cumulative.  Each round fired, removes the previous residue and the residue acts as a lubricant.  Also super easy to clean up.  Just a consideration for you.

Pyrodex and 777 in my opinion are corrosive of themselves.  Add a little moisture and there is hell to pay.  BP is only corrosive when allowed to trap moisture next to the steel.  BP is hydroscopic.  The easiest "smoky" stuff to clean are APP and Black MZ.  While they don't make the same BOOM and Flame, they do make good smoke and are really FUN to play with.

Coffinmaker

[Ranch 13]

My experience with the Pyrodex goes back to the 1970's when it was brand new..
Have tried almost all of the "substitute" powders, and if I were to have to pick one it would be Blackhorn 209, altho it won't work worth a poop in traditional muzzleloaders or capnball revolvers. It does work very well in cartridge guns.

[Professor Marvel]

Wow, I wasn't expecting such a thorough response. Thank you for taking the time. I was not trying to belittle anyone. As noted, I was doing a search trying to find info on whether Pyrodex was as corrosive as claimed, or whether it was an old wive's tale (which the internet is rife with), hence the search for actual testing. I was surprised by Mike's response, since it ran counter to everything to was reading elsewhere, which is why I posted it. The information you gave is very helpful, but I want to emphasize that my intent was not to argue or disagree with anyone, I know *nothing* about this. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post, it's very helpful. Looks like I'm going to have to search harder for a local store that sells actual BP and not just the subs.

My good Ben-

I am rather intrigued that Mr. Daly has posted his boilerplate missive on many other forums, but never here.
One can draw their own conclusions.

I am happy to shed light on subjects on which I have valid experience and/or information, when backed up with facts.
I also like to debunk overhyped marketing lies exagerations.

I believe it is important to note that experienced long range shooters like Ranch13 stick almost exclusively to true BP.
In the past, I bought mine at Rondy's or via the local muzzleloader club where we could split up a case.
In the last 10 years that has not been possible, so I have save my Black for my muzzleloading rifles and used Pyro for C&B revovlers and cartridges, paying very close attention to the cleaning and living with the fact that it produces small amounts of hydrochloric acid and cyanide gas, shooting outdoors and cleaning carefully.

Coffinmaker has turned me to to  Alliant Black MZ Muzzleloader Powder which I got quite cheaply at Sportsmans Warehouse (only $10 a pound). Unfortunately due to weather and spousal surgery I havenot yet been able to play with it. If black MZ works out I
will replace Pyro with it entirely!

yhs
prof marvel