Stepping back in time - Oversized 1873 & pure lead bullets

w44wcf · June 23, 2016, 09:56:59 PM

............The rifle: Original special ordered 1873 Winchester made in 1882
.........The barrel: oversized >.4365" dia breech /.4335" dia. muzzle / somewhat rough
The ammunition: replication of the original b.p. ammunition / pure lead bullets (.426") / 40 grs. b.p.

Even though I have experimented in the past with b.p. in this rifle, it was mostly with bullets that fit the barrel.

Recently I had an interest in stepping back in time to the original owner and wanted to see how the rifle performed for him using the only ammunition available at that time which was factory loaded with b.p., and had a thin card wad between the powder and a pure lead bullet.

For the test, I used some original W.R.A. Co. .44 W.C.F. headstamped cases. 40 grs. of Swiss FFG powder was used and compressed .20". A .04" thick card wad was then placed over the powder and a pure lead 427098 bullet was seated and crimped.

Just as it happened back in 1882, I was delighted to see that the pure lead bullets bumped up .010" to fill the oversized bore and produce the 50 target below.

I am sure the original owner was very pleased.........as was I!

w44wcf

Flatbush · June 23, 2016, 10:09:42 PM

Good job researching and working up a load! Your work paid off!

Nice looking rifle too.

Abilene · June 23, 2016, 11:10:50 PM

Quote from: Flatbush on June 23, 2016, 10:09:42 PM
Good job researching and working up a load! Your work paid off!

Nice looking rifle too.

Ditto!

Lefty Dude · June 24, 2016, 12:20:32 AM

Sweet, says it all !

Dick Dastardly · June 25, 2016, 03:06:53 PM

Howdy John,

I'm wondering how that same rifle might perform with the Mav Dutchman Big Lube®LLC bullets? They drop closer to bore size and weigh in at 200 grains. Same alloy, same lube, same powder charge, same card wad. I have been getting 1 moa groups out to 100 yards with my Browning 92 chambered in 44 Magnum (Extra Long Russian) and Swiss FFFg.

DD-MDA

Cliff Fendley · June 26, 2016, 08:32:43 AM

Nice rifle John. Thanks for sharing

w44wcf · June 29, 2016, 09:15:30 PM

Pards,
Thank you for the kind words. It was interesting to see the results of undersized pure lead bullets in the oversized Winchester.

Howdy DD,
Good idea, but the "Big Lube" .44 bullets I have I had purchased, and are about 10 BHN, which is too hard to bump up to .436 from .429". Even 40/1 bullets (about 6 BHN) are a bit too hard to bump up successively that much.

I do have a "Big Lube" mold for the .45 but not the .44.

w44wcf

Blackpowder Burn · June 30, 2016, 06:49:51 AM

Really interesting information. I'm pleasantly surprised that the bullet obturated that much. I'll file that in the old memory banks in case I run into a similar situation in the future.

Trailrider · June 30, 2016, 10:41:53 AM

While the "nominal" bullet diameter, and allegedly the groove diameter of original Winchesters chambered for .44 WCF (.44-40) was (and the SAAMI standard still is) .427+.000 -.003, many...not all... of the original Winchester M1873's have much larger groove diameters, and most of the ones I have measured were NOT worn. It would appear that Winchester was concerned about excessive BP fouling from rapid fire, and thus enlarged the barrels internally. To compensate for the oversized bore/grooves, they sold the ammo using dead soft lead bullets, which, as w44wcf has demonstrated, appear to work pretty well. I have an original '73 with a .434" groove barrel. I don't shoot BP very much, and I can tell you that smokeless powder behind hard cast .429" bullets will give you "minute-of-foot" groups at 25 yds! The rifle will shoot some smaller groups using jacketed .429" bullets and smokeless because the rifling is deep enough that the jackets will grip the rifling. Of course, that is not only hard on the rifle, but can't be used in CAS matches. I don't use it for matches, relying on modern-made rifles. Just thought you'd like to know.

w44wcf · July 11, 2016, 09:08:02 AM

Trailrider,
I had the unique opportunity to meet and speak with George Madis (wrote the Winchester Book) about '73 bore/groove diameters. George told me that he had checked these dimensions in many, many, black powder era Winchesters, and found that there was quite a variance.

George felt the reason was that more importance was placed on the external appearance of the rifle and it was known that soft lead bullets and black powder would provide satisfactory results in barrels with varying dimensions. He noted that barrel tolerances were much tighter in rifles produced after 1895 because of the advent of smokeless powder.

w44wcf

Fox Creek Kid · July 20, 2016, 02:38:08 AM

Quote from: w44wcf on July 11, 2016, 09:08:02 AM
Trailrider,
I had the unique opportunity to meet and speak with George Madis (wrote the Winchester Book) about '73 bore/groove diameters. George told me that he had checked these dimensions in many, many, black powder era Winchesters, and found that there was quite a variance.

George felt the reason was that more importance was placed on the external appearance of the rifle and it was known that soft lead bullets and black powder would provide satisfactory results in barrels with varying dimensions. He noted that barrel tolerances were much tighter in rifles produced after 1895 because of the advent of smokeless powder.

w44wcf

George was right: they were all over the map!! Not just Winchester, but all the other makers as well.

Great article, sir!!!