Should it stay or should it go?

[Trader Dan]

Howdy pards, I do hope this is the right forum to post this in.

I have a new Cimarron 1866 Goldenboy rifle. I have shot it probably 100 or more times and participated in one CAS shoot. I have shot smokeless and black powder and neither have given me any problems. The action is smooth and the trigger is very acceptable. I plan on continuing participating in my club's CAS matches.

So the question is, should it stay or should it go out to be slicked up? I like the way it shoots, it is dead on for what I use it for. But it is a stock action. I cannot make up my mind as to whether I should send it out to get it slicked up and a short stroke kit installed or leave it alone. I understand the advantages of the action job but chances are good I will never attend a match where that kind of tuning will be to my advantage. (Although I would like to attend at least one EOT.) My club meets are great fun and no one really cares about anyone else's score.

So, back to the original question. should it stay or should it go?

[River City John]

If it works right for you as is, save yourself the money.




RCJ

[Sagebrush Burns]

RCJ has it right.  You like the way it works:  it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Lucky R. K.]

So the question is, should it stay or should it go out to be slicked up?

There is another option, do it yourself. You can get an excellent short stroke kit from Pioneer Gun Works that the average person can install. 

I recently installed their super short stroke kit with a stainless steel follower and spring in my new Ubertti '66.  Depending on how it goes together you might have to remove some metal from the bottom of the lifter with a file but nothing major.

This is the second one of their kits I have installed.  The first was in a Ubertti '73. No problems with either.

Good luck.

Lucky 

[Coffinmaker]

I'me a retired CAS Gunplumber.  Spent over 16+ years building CAS guns for competition.  My answer is based on sever considerations.
First, is wear.  ALL the OEM springs are too heavy.  Replace your stock Lever Side Springs with SlixSprings.  The gun will last longer.
The Main Spring is also too heavy.  I suggest you contact Slick Magic for a reduced Main Spring.  The difference will be amazing.

Coffinmaker

[Major 2]

a little voice told me to listen to this man... "Coffin maker " he is wise ...

I did and the results are  NIGHT & DAY ...swap the springs ...save your money of the Short stroke's kits as in don't bother.

But say Yes to the springs , it will transform a nice gun into a SWEET one.


My 73   ......  and my Marlin  OH MY !

[Coffinmaker]

Almost forgot.

You didn't mention caliber (British alcohol free beer).  If your rifle is a .45, you should also equip it with Positive Slam Down.

Coffinmaker

[Mean Bob Mean]

Proper springs yes, short stroke naw.  Not unless you are competing nationally. 

[River City John]

 No need to throw hundreds of dollars at your rifle to turn it into a race gun. The top shooters are always going to be faster.

Much better to practice muscle memory and keeping the butt tight into your shoulder and not lowering the rifle whenever you lever a new round in. Maintain your sight picture that way.



RCJ

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I totally agree with RCJ. As long as there are no stoppages, I see no purpose in spending money on the gun, except on more ammo to practice!

[Trader Dan]

You guys are thinking what I was. As I stated, my local matches are fun matches and no one really cares about my scores except me.

I like the idea of changing the springs. I tried to remove the magazine plug and I could not budge it. I have a good gunsmith screw driver set coming from Brownells. I was using a cheap set of gun smith screw drivers. And I really do not want to bugger the screw heads.

Coffinmaker. It is a 44-40.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have been practicing and I am getting pretty good at levering the gun on my shoulder. I am going to the range sunday and will get to shoot my black powder loads I made. that should be interesting!

[Trader Dan]

Coffinmaker, I found Slix springs but I cannot find the Slick Magic spring vendor. I found Slick's Mercantile but he does not have a main spring for a Cimarron/Uberti 1866. Do yo have a link for this business?

[Lucky R. K.]

No need to throw hundreds of dollars at your rifle to turn it into a race gun. The top shooters are always going to be faster.
RCJ

It all depends on what you want to do. If you never plan to do any competitive shooting the stock rifle will do the job just fine.  If, on the other hand, you do want to be a competitive shooter in SAS matches some attention should be shown to the guns and practice sessions. It all depends on what you want out of the experience.

My goal is to win my category which is Frontiersman each time I go to a match whether it be local, state, or regional. That can't be done with "out of the box" guns.

Lucky

[Major 2]

Coffinmaker, I found Slix springs but I cannot find the Slick Magic spring vendor. I found Slick's Mercantile but he does not have a main spring for a Cimarron/Uberti 1866. Do yo have a link for this business?

get you one of these...well worth the $  ..

http://cowboygunparts.com/slotted-wrench.html

[Coffinmaker]

Dan,
Google "Slick Magic guns"  Not Slix Springs.  The springs for the 1873/1866/Henry are on page two of his on line store.  Right now, he is
at End of Trail.  Doubt he will be shipping for about two weeks.

Coffinmaker

PS:  SlixSprings for the lever side springs and Slick Magic for the Main Spring.  The lever springs will require minor fitting.

[Major 2]

OH oh  my bad ...I was highlighting the wrench...mine is from UniqueTek, Inc. but works the same.

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1380

http://www.slickmagicguns.com/SlickMercantile.html

here is Slick Magic Guns..I got my springs here for my 73 , Marlin 94 , & my 97 Trench, per Coffin Makers suggestion
These transformed the guns like warm butter on glass....  the 73 was sweet but
you would not believe how the Marlin was transformed  

[Montana Slim]

I recommend working the mainspring down. Easy enough for anyone to do.....AND, it will lengthen the life of your mainspring due to factory manufacturing grinding marks crosswise on the spring. I start with a coarse drill-powered sanding drum, then use finer ones to finish. Simply remove all the crosswise factory grind with smooth lengthwise grinds.

Hold the spring in your hand. When its too warm to hold, cool it in a cup of water...then continue.

Personally, I'd not recommend a short stoke & other mods as long as the rifle is working to suit your taste.

As far as longevity, I have two Uberti 1866's (both 44-40) one is an OLD Navy Arms I bought from a friend who near wore out the bolt. I replaced it have shot thousands of rounds. The other is one I bought new about 20 yrs ago. Estimate 30,000 rounds on it (Near all full BP loads). Only failure was the mainspring snapped 8-10 years ago. I found it was finished with crosswise grinding...talk about stress risers. Bought a new replacement spring. And it had the same grind marks. I removed them as described above.

Very little improvement on the issued rifle is needed to meet the goal of reliable operation. The only other area I would consider is removal of a coil or two from the firing pin spring....especially if you lighten your mainspring. It you get a few misfires, this will indicate need to clip a coil.

Slim
I guess you could say I'm not a fan of the many "standard" suggested improvements.
Not a gunsmith, but am an engineer working in the firearms field.

[Coffinmaker]

AMAZEMENT!!  I find myself in agreement with Montana Slim!!
A Caveat.  As many may know, I spent the better part of 20 years building competition rifles for CAS.  Mostly Toggle Link rifles.  One of
my claims to fame has been HONESTY.  I have always been completely honest with my customers.  Many taunted modifications to
Toggle Link Rifles are unwarranted.  Unless your going to become one of the top 15% of competitors, spending the money for the
latest and greatest magic mods is a waste of money.  If your not going to be competing at the TOP, a Super Short Stroke is not going
to do much except add to my bottom line. 

My biggest bugaboo is wear on the moving parts.  The original 19th Century originals were WAY over sprung.  Since those were the
sample examples copied, the Reproductions are also WAY over sprung.  You shouldn't have to fight your equipment.  The BIGGEST
BANG for your buck is a good action job.  It doesn't entail much.  Replace the OEM springs with after-market (we use to have to re-grind all the springs) and eliminate drag from burrs left after machining.  30% of the lever effort is from too heavy lever side springs.  The rest is a too heavy Main Spring.  And ...... the Italians making a Main Spring with all that cross wise machining, creating gad awful stress
risers is just STUPID!!

With OEM springs, the action is going to eat itself over time.  We run more rounds thru our guns in a single match than most originals saw
is the last 150 years.  The originals would have worn out too.  All the work is related.  If you reduce the Main Spring, reduce the firing pin
return spring.  It only need to be long enough to push the extension rod all the way back, or just a little over 5/8 of an inch.  The left side
lever spring will EAT the lever cam.  That cam is no longer a replaceable part.  New lever time.  The right side spring will wear the Carrier Block Arm.  Fit new springs (I like Slix).  Carefully reduce theMain Spring or buy aftermarket.  (I DON NOT like Smith Shop) Try Slick
Magic. 

At stock lever throw, with an action job, A Toggle Link rifle is FAST.  Very FAST.  Very SMOOTH.  You'll really like a lever wrap because it will run fast and light enough to hurt your fingers at the end of the forward stroke.  These are ALL very basic and simple changes the average person can do with a good set of screwdrivers and two or three cups of coffee.  Basic improvement.

Coffinmaker 

[Abilene]

...The original 19th Century originals were WAY over sprung.  Since those were the
sample examples copied, the Reproductions are also WAY over sprung....

Actually, this is not true.  Originals were shipped with the spring screws NOT tightened all the way, to allow for adjustment.  This is plainly stated in the original Winchester catalog.  Uberti tightens the screw springs all the way which DOES result in the rifle being oversprung. 

A lot of people have used this technique for the "poor man's action job":
http://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/PoorMan.htm

The appropriate Directions from Winchester are noted at the bottom of the article.  Obviously you must do these adjustments within reason.  Loosening screws too much will result in the carrier hanging up or the main spring not popping primers, same as if these springs had too much material removed during an action job.  I have shot BP in .45, .357, and .44 Spcl straight wall cases with no action problems (and no slam down mod, either).  The carrier may require a spritz during the match.

YMMV.

[Montana Slim]

Excellent discussions. A few springs on my rifles which have been tweaked a bit via slight bending or some grinding, whether by me or the previous owner result in differing power. So, some of my spring strain screws are fully tight, and others backed off a bit. Example - the mainspring strain screw. Easy to notice if its set too light.

Not sure I'd notice ANY speed advantage by ME running 44-40 with 200 grain lead & 31 grains of gunpowder...especially in my 19" 1866 Carbine. Could be useful if I shot a lower caliber with a heavier rifle....aka 38 Spl.

Coffinmaker  - 

Slim