1866 "other" caliber

[Cowtown]

Originally the 1866 was made in .44 Henry rimfire only EXCEPT for (IIRC) a small run made for a foreign gov't. None were sold in the US. I cannot remember which gov't nor what the other caliber might have been. I seem to have read this somewhere and have no idea where.

Anyone know what other caliber the 1866 was originally made in?

[Abilene]

Seems like I've only heard it referred to as .44 Center Fire.

[Cowtown]

Way back when would that have also been known as 44 Colt?

[The Pathfinder]

Wasn't there a large brass frame rifle made for military trial in something like a 44-60 or something? Don't know as I call that a '66 tho', it was more the size of a '76.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Here is a very short thread that may help;

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,18659.0.html

[Books OToole]

I believe that it was Brazil, and the round is .44 Henry center fire.

Books

[Cowtown]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Exactly what I was searching for.

I remember reading this information somewhere, once upon a time but could not recall the details.

[Coffinmaker]

Actually, there wasn't a different "caliber" for the 1866.  The 1866 was only ever manufactured in .44  There was however, the slightly
different "cartridge."   That cartridge being the .44 Henry Central Fire.  Those guns, the last 1866s produced were not retailed in this
country.  They all went to South America.  If one were "Vacationing" in that part of the world, it would be a hoot to locate some
shootable examples of the Central Fire 1866 and bring them back.  Be a pain to get em past the BATFE but perhaps thru an import
license holder??  Oh well.

Prior the the entry of Uberti onto the replica scene, there are no known examples of either an 1866 or an 1860 being built with an
extended frame to permit the inclusion of the 44-40.  At the time the 44-40 was introduced, the 1860 Henry was already in Dodo
status and the 1866 was already slated for Dodo.  The 1873 was entering the market place and selling like hot cakes.  Continuing
the 1866 was not financially a good idea for Winchester.

Coffinmaker

[Cowtown]

Great info.

Thank you,  Coffinmaker.

[Cliff Fendley]

The 1873 was entering the market place and selling like hot cakes.  Continuing
the 1866 was not financially a good idea for Winchester.

Coffinmaker

Far from the numbers of 73's manufactured but the 66's were still produced for 26 years after the introduction of the 73.

About a third of the 66's produced were manufactured AFTER the 73 was available. Mostly during the first 10 years of the 73's production but the 66 wasn't dropped like a hot potato as soon as the 73 hit the market.

I wonder how many of those later ones were the center fire? I have heard numbers but can't recall.

[Coffinmaker]

The only 1866 production that continued after the '73 entered the market place was based on "new old stock" or what we call "parts on
hand."  the actual numbers weren't large.
As far as Central Fire guns, there were somewhere between 1000 and 1100.  I've most hear numbers around 1050.  Again, those guns
were not retailed in this country.  The total of the Central Fire production went to South America.  There have been claims of Central
Fire '66s in this country, however those are guns brought back from way down south.

Coffinmaker

Unfortunately, a number of the old records are no longer extant for absolute review.

[Mike]

It would be difficult to say with absolute certainty that no 44 CF 66 modles were not sold in the US as there are not complete records?
There for there could be a special order gun out there?

Who nows

[Cliff Fendley]

The only 1866 production that continued after the '73 entered the market place was based on "new old stock" or what we call "parts on
hand."  the actual numbers weren't large.
As far as Central Fire guns, there were somewhere between 1000 and 1100.  I've most hear numbers around 1050.  Again, those guns
were not retailed in this country.  The total of the Central Fire production went to South America.  There have been claims of Central
Fire '66s in this country, however those are guns brought back from way down south.

Coffinmaker

Unfortunately, a number of the old records are no longer extant for absolute review.

During the first six years after the introduction of the 1873 there were still twice as many 66's produced as 1873 models.

That would have been an awful lot of parts laying around but I guess it's possible.

The question that has always raised for me is if Winchester could produce that many parts ahead of it's assembly why did it take nearly ten years for as many 73's to be made as were made of 66's in the seven years prior to the introduction of the 73?

In the first years following the introduction of the 73 saw high production for one but not the other and vice versa. My guess is sales and inventory would dictate which they were making.

[Cliff Fendley]

Furthermore factory letters indicate 73 Winchesters sat in the warehouse during certain periods indicating production was ahead of demand.

One example is serial number 15202 was received in the warehouse February 26, 1876 and was shipped from the warehouse July 11, 1877.

Now while this particular rifle has a set trigger and longer than average barrel might indicate sitting longer than others it still supports the reason why less than 500 73's were made during 1877 while over 16000 66's were made was because there were 73's sitting in the warehouse for a year and a half during the same time.

Certainly does not indicate that 66's were dropped like dodo because the 73's were selling like hotcakes. To the average consumer the 73 offered only a more powerful cartridge than the 66 but I'm sure for a larger price tag to go with it.

Whatever the real reason it took a bit of time for the center fire cartridge to dominate the market.

[Blair]

Cliff,

In doing the small amount of research I have done on this subject, within the books I have on hand, I would agree with your summation on this subject. This is an area of rather great interest to me personally, so I should probably not say it is a "small amount" of research.
For those who are interested, I will be happy to post the information I have based on the books I also have.
My best,
Blair

[Cliff Fendley]

Cliff,

In doing the small amount of research I have done on this subject, within the books I have on hand, I would agree with your summation on this subject. This is an area of rather great interest to me personally, so I should probably not say it is a "small amount" of research.
For those who are interested, I will be happy to post the information I have based on the books I also have.
My best,
Blair

Blair please do so, start another thread so we can have discussion on it without hijacking this thread.

I have not done a lot of research myself what I posted above was just my thoughts from my limited observation of serial numbers and Winchester factory letters I either have or been able to observe. I would love to learn more based on your research.