Black powder cleaning myth

[Flint]

I own both an original 2nd Model S&W Russian, and  2 Ubertis...  I shot both today, the original with Black Powder loaded 44 Russian ammo, and one of the Ubertis with Smokeless (231) loads.

I cleaned the S&W in about 10 minutes or less, totally spotless.

I cleaned the Uberti in somewhat over a half hour, using a Lewis Led Remover and wire brush in the bore and chambers, and razor blade scraper (on the breech face).  Short of using a power drill motor, cleaning smokeless residue is a real chore, if you want it "really" clean, including the carbon rings in the cylinder and lead in the bore....  I have yet to see lead in a black powder bore.  And I consider 231 to be a fairly clean burning powder.

[olskool]

i have been handloading right at 49 years, i just started shooting BP in cartridge guns. 45 colt and my 44wcf uberti rifle, i also took note there was no leading with BP when there had been a little with smokeless. i really get very little lead anyway, if a bullet is lubed and sized correctly it will lead little, but with BP i see no evidence of leading. i use ballistoil to clean, it is just outstanding to me, i have never ran across anything like it.

[Coffinmaker]

Now, wait just a minute here!!!    I am one of those people whom pitched a fit for years that I wasn't, Wouldn't, Shouldn't and didn't
shoot Black Powder.  Absolutely to messy to clean up.  Way to messy.    Absolutely refused to play with the stuff.  Humpff.

Then my partner in crime go me hooked on Percussion Gunz.  Not just Black Powder, but (Gasp) Percussion.  Oh the HORROR!!  What
an amazing discovery.  Simply AMAZING.  I were Gobsmacked (Brit wurd for amazed).  Cleaning the guns is a snap.  Simple.  Little
Hot Water and Presto Change0.  Sparkling.

Just last weekend, I reverted to some "shoot it up" ammo.  Unmarked boxes (yea, I know... dumb) but what da hey, take it out and
shoot da match.  Smokeless (mostly).  WHAT A GROAN!!  Compared to BP clean up, it took forever!!  Absolutely FOUR EVER!!  I WAS
ANNOYED!!

Cleaning up with BP or APP is a straight forward half bottle job (Half bottle of Rogue Dead Guy Ale).  Not only that, but NO LEAD.  Just super simple.

And here you guys thought I was gonna argue wid Flint.  Tee Hee Hee

Coffinmaker

[Navy Six]

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain this to people. I'm sure everyone at this site has done the same. Many of those who have been life-long(smokeless) shooters still believe the blackpowder "horror" stories that are circulated. We have a fairly high percentage of blackpowder shooters at the Cowboy clubs I attend--believe it or not in NJ. I am always pleased when one of the "converts" to blackpowder describes to me in amazement how much quicker, although somewhat messier, their guns were to clean.

[Lefty Dude]

Clean your Firearms with Black powder, they can not get any cleaner !

My 73 Uberti/Cimarron 44WCF carbine, has not had the side plates off in four Years. The inerds never get dirty.

[olskool]

i have shot caplocks and flintlocks for a few years, but just started with cartridge ammo in BP it is new and fun to reload again like that feeling of loading my first bullet in back in 67 when i was a kid.......

[Truly Grits]

I regard the 'horror' stories circulated about BP fouling and cleanup, with about the same skeptic eye as the ramblings of 'new age' religions. After all they are those 'heathen' smokeless users. I believe in the Holy Black, proven over a few thousand years; smokeless has barely 200 years of track record.

[1961MJS]

I regard the 'horror' stories circulated about BP fouling and cleanup, with about the same skeptic eye as the ramblings of 'new age' religions. After all they are those 'heathen' smokeless users. I believe in the Holy Black, proven over a few thousand years; smokeless has barely 200 years of track record.

Hi

In my opinion, the worst part of shooting black powder is what happens if you DON'T clean.  Shooting modern smokeless, you don't clean it won't matter much.  Shooting old corrosive primers or black powder and don't clean it, you can have a pitted gun in a day or two.  Of course there IS the rotten eggs smell.  In the distant past I've taken a n 1858 Remington fully apart and run it through the dishwasher (left the grips out...).  Heated drying is really great.

Later

[Blackpowder Burn]

Actually, no, you don't get pitting or corrosion in a day or two - if you shoot true black powder, and not the fake stuff. While I do clean mine within a day or so of shooting a 2 or 3 day match, even that isn't required.  I've left them a week or more with no issue at all.  As you'll read from others on this forum, they have deliberately left them uncleaned for several weeks (even months in one case if I recall correctly) with no ill effects.

Lot's of misinformation out there.

[Coffinmaker]

I can readily attest to some things, based on the experience of 20 and a couple years as a practicing Gunsmith.  I had the extreme pleasure of having to clean numerous guns brought to me by smokeless shooters that hadn't been cleaned in years.  Didn't think
you had to.  Some of those guns were hopeless.  Most took an enormous amount of solvents and lots and lots of time to bring back
to "just acceptable."  The bill reflected that.

A very few BP guns were brought in having been neglected for days, weeks and in a couple cases, several months. 10 - 15 minutes in the
sink and they were done.  Squeaky.  Some that lived in a humid environment were hopelessly pitted in the bore and cylinder.  Those that
lived in dryer environs or Climate Controlled, showed no ill effects.

Some guns, brought in after being neglected and shooting some of the subs were write-offs.  Carrier Blocks fused to the mortice in a Brass
rifle.  Barrels that looked like a sewer pipe after Pyrodex or 777.

I still hear some folks at matches repeating some of the Old Wives Tales as if gospel.  Don't have to clean if you shoot Subs.  Yep, Believe it.  BP is really hard to clean up.  All sorts of krap.  I call those folks Parrots.  No knowledge.  No experience.  No personal skills. Just
Parrots.  Parrots are annoying, loud and dirty birds.  Parrots.  Sheesh.

Coffinmaker (I rambled, it's late, I hope I made sense)

[john boy]

This lube-cleaner makes cleaning BPC or c&B's even easier ...
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/156/1/LUBE-LEHIGH

[olskool]

i never tried the Lehigh Valley Lubricant, it is no doubt good. i can't see anything being better than ballistoil. i started using it about a month ago and have never seen anything like it. in my 44wcf rifle after about two passes with a wet patch of 50%water and 50% ballastiol and a few passes with a brush and then a couple of dry patches the bore is clean! lube the bore and it is ready until next time(tomorrow)

[Cliff Fendley]

I honestly think a lot of the black powder clean up and corrosion stories from recent generations comes from shooting Pyrodex or other substitutes.

My first muzzleloading experiences were with Pyrodex because I bought the advertising hype that it was cleaner than black powder, then thought good grief if this is cleaner than black powder guns are just pure horror to mess with. Plus dealing with the corrosion issues that go with Pyrodex when it was said to be less corrosive.

Then I shot real black powder and found how easy it really is and I have found the same as others mentioned, I actually spend less time cleaning black powder than smokeless.

[Crow Choker]

     OK, I'll toss my thoughts on BP cleaning into the fray. I tried to quote a post I posted on May 22 (Darksider Den) on a thread started by Dave T posted on May 21 titled "Old BP shooter becoming a New BP shooter". Being able to find my way around better in a 500 acre corn field at night vs a computer I was unsuccessful, so you'll have to look it up if curious.

    I wrote how if unable to clean BP firearms ASP, I do one of two things. Either do a spray down of the gun using WD40 or break the gun if a C&B into its major parts, do a quick clean with Ballistol milk or WD40, then spray the parts with WD, lay on old news papers for cleaning later. I've done this since '72 when I started BP shooting, cleaning usually within several days, but have gone a week before with no effects to finish, bores, interior cylinder areas, etc.

    Some of ya have posted about the tales that abound about the corrosive effects of black powder and how hard/messy it is to clean firearms using it. Back when I first got into BP shooting with a 44 cal 51' Colt and TC muzzle loader, I believed all those tales. Most of these are read or heard by shooters who either misread writings or misinterpret what they hear or are lead to believe by those who don't know all the facts themselves. 'Nothing Wrong' with cleaning ASP, but sometimes "it ain't possible". When I do a final cleaning, it is through, not just swabbing down the bore, cylinder, wiping exterior areas quickly, etc. The thing I hate the most and seems to be the most time consuming is the nipple area of the cylinder. If I plan on shooting the gun soon I clean the nipples and their cavities as good as possible, if not I pull and clean the nipples and the recessed areas of the cylinder nipple area as it is here that hard residue builds and I believe is a prime area for rust to form under the residue. Hate the time and process of doing this, but all my cap guns look as new in this area.

    Is BP cleaner shooting than smokeless? No! Most SmokeLess powders are formulated to burn clean, some more so than others. I've shot thousands of rounds of ammo using SL powders-rifle, shotgun and handgun. Have been reloading since the early/mid 70's with SL powders and have always had cleaner firearms after shooting them than with any BP guns I've loaded and fired. Stories and testaments of firearms harder to clean are usually the result of improper bullet/powder combination's. Yes, you'll probably never see a BP  muzzleloader rifle, cap n' ball, or cartridge BP firing handgun lead a barrel because their isn't enough heat and velocity of bullet/ball to lead the barrel. If you could safely put enough BP in a chamber/case to get the fps you can attain with a handgun/rifle using SL you'd see lead in the barrel, especially using soft lead bullets/balls. Years of shooting PPC/Combat shooting courses as LEO using WC and SWC's that were not hard enough leaded the barrel terribly. Switching over to lead higher on the Brinell scale stopped a lot of the problem. Using SL powder with a faster burning rate than needed with the wrong bullet hardness is a barrel leading disaster. Using gas checks does wonder with cast bullets. Same with using cast bullets and SL in rifles. You can't drive them down the bores at the same fps as using copper clad bullets, even they have their limitations, coating the rifle bores with copper. I can clean my 357/44 caliber revolvers that have shot 10 times more in a shooting session faster than any of my CB's using BP.

    Will BP rust a gun, you bet. As posted, a lot of the problems is with using older corrosive caps and the chemical reaction of them, along with the black powder reside and moisture. This doesn't mean you can do a quick swabbing and put it away for a lengthy period of time using modern percussion caps. If planning to shoot within a day, you can get by, if not, rust may catch up to ya. Same goes to using any SL ammo for modern firearms that have corrosive primers. Does this mean if you shoot SL with modern non-corrosive primers you don't have to clean? No, just means you don't have to clean as often. Cleaning is still needed at times for SL firing firearms if you value your firearm's. A lot of European military style ammo has corrosive primers which presents the need to clean the firearm right away.

Is black powder fun to shoot. You bet, otherwise I wouldn't have been doing it for 40 some years. Is BP better than SL? Depends what your shooting it in, what type of shooting your doing, and a host of other reasons and applications. I've always maintained that if BP was a better propellant than SL, why don't militaries around the world use it for their small arms? Why back in the late 1890's and early 1900's did they switch over to SL. Ya I'm aware it still has applications for some heavy weapons, but not for any small arms use. Is BP 'Holy"? I don't think so, a over rated and misused description. I get a little perturbed when some of ya who will shoot nothing but black, look down on those that shoot nothing but SL or to those who shoot both are considered some kind of half breed. I'm glad it's available and its a 'hoot' to shoot and I'll keep on doing so. Love shootin' my C&B's, esp my 2nd Model Dragoon and conversions. Now some of you will probably be offended that I called BP not 'holy' and may have stepped on yer toes. Not meaning to offend, we all have our opinions and have the freedom do say them. Please 'Cutts', not meaning to bring SL into the fray, if you read the posts posted before mine, others brought up the subject and their comments were not tossed in 'file 9', so my thoughts are just a response to theirs. Any firearm can be a chore to clean, some more than others, but my point of the whole thing is that black powder isnot cleaner burning and easier to clean than any SL shootin firearm, if that SL shootin firearms ammo is held to reasonable limitations. Same common sense needed for SL firearms as used for BP firearms. For the record, I've never used any substitute BP's, ie Pyrodex, 777, etc, so I can't report of any experience with them, have to believe what's been said about them. Use the 'real' stuff, mostly Goex FF/FFF.

   Have a good day all, enjoy all your posts, not looking for a 'kicking' match. Man this got long--figured that Rifle doesn't post any more, so someone had to post a lengthy one. Hope Rifle is ok too, haven't seen any of his postings for a while. Take care all!!!! Yers, Crow Choker
(any misspellings or grammical errors need to be ignored as I'm terrible at it, I proof read it and guess its ok. I need to get out and mow my lawn before it needs baling.)      

[Montana Slim]

Much agreement with postings above...and I'l report a few minor oddities/side notes:

I'll have to say that cleaning my non-BP guns got a whole lotta easy AFTER I started using my own cast bullets (relatively soft alloy) and my BP bullet lube. An excellent cleaning solvent has been a variation of Ed's Red formula (none of the "P" ingredients).

Regarding leading with SL - the above bullets/lube produce minimal leading, even at 1400+ in a magnum revolver.
I frequently see a small bit of lead with my BP guns (cartridge & C&B), but...I never see it in the bore or chambers, only on the cleaning patches as it comes out by the time I've run the first dry patch.

Slim

[Noz]

My experience with black and the subs is a shotgun used with Pyrodex pitted in 48 hours.  A cap and ball revolver that got "out of sync" was left uncleaned for 4 months with no damage.

Your mileage may vary.

[Yakima Red]

Like automobiles, firearms require maintenance. I cringe when the smokyless crowd proclaims "you don't need to clean them as often!"
I too get revolvers brought to me that have stopped working. All they needed was a good cleaning. I got a Vaquero in once that had so much lead build up on the forcing cone it looked like a caliber smaller.

If you really needed it..really, really bad....would you trust your life on a firearm that you never maintenance?

[Dick Dastardly]

Moosemilk (Ballistol and water mixed 1:20) in a spritz bottle does much of the cleaning work.  That and a Boresnake make short work of my cleaning needs.  Now and then, when I want to fondle my guns, I take them apart mostly, spray 'em out with Moosemilk and blow 'em off with compressed air.

Having loaded and shot Holy Black since before many shooters were in diapers, I've not had rust or corrosion problems.  I do have a Winchester 97 in 16ga that has a brown patina that it acquired before I bought it.  Not so much rust, but more of a long since loss of bluing and aging unprotected metal.  I kind of like the looks of the old 97 and I doubt that I'll ever have it buffed and blued.  The innards are slick, smooth and must have always been well lubricated.

Cleaning guns is a relaxing task and best done at a leisurely pace, preferably with a tall cool beverage near by.

The above isn't to be miss read to mean that I'm careless about cleaning my guns.  It is, however, intended to take the mystery out of shooting and cleaning black powder firearms.  Enjoy the smoke, fragrance and flames my friends.

DD-MDA 

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

    OK, I'll toss my thoughts on BP cleaning into the fray.
<snip>

   Have a good day all, enjoy all your posts, not looking for a 'kicking' match. Man this got long--figured that Rifle doesn't post any more, so someone had to post a lengthy one. Hope Rifle is ok too, haven't seen any of his postings for a while. Take care all!!!! Yers, Crow Choker
(any misspellings or grammical errors need to be ignored as I'm terrible at it, I proof read it and guess its ok. I need to get out and mow my lawn before it needs baling.)      

  This pretty much reflects my sentiments. I'm a very recently new BP shooter, especially "real" BP, and love it, to a point. I've bought three original Winchester 1873's, and three 1st Generation Colt's (all 38-40's) as well as a Uberti 1866 Sporting Rifle (44-40). The rifles, no big deal at all to clean. I don't even bother removing the side plates as the innards stay so clean.  My current '73's are 126 and 130 years old and while the bores show their age, the actions are in remarkably good condition with the insides of the side plates still maintaining most of the original bluing. I've figured out that 2 or 3 passes down the bore with a dry brush before the Moose Milk mixture makes cleaning super easy and super fast...with the rifles. The revolvers are quite another story.

   When I first started messing with the old Colt revolvers I noticed the ends of the base pins were all boogered up and finally realized why; someone waited too long to clean them and then had to use pliers to remove them because they had seized due to BP fouling. That's been my experience with BP in the revolvers...fire too many rounds without cleaning and the BP residue will find its way around the base pin and around the cylinder bushing. Sure, the cylinder and bore are no big deal at all to clean, but the base pin and cylinder bushing will have to be removed at some point and cleaned or else the ol' sticky, gummy action will result. Conversely, I fire SL almost on a daily basis here at the house, especially in one of my Uberti .44 Specials, and clean it only occasionally when the mood strikes me.

  Then there's the brass, with SL I clean only because brass gets dingy, but with BP, it's a requirement, or at least that's been my understanding. Either drop it in a solution of vinegar and water, hot soapy water, or in a wet tumbler. This is probably the one thing that most limits my BP shooting.

  Last, a can of Swiss 3Fg and a can of SL cost me about the same; ~$25. Thing is, it takes 3 to 4 times more BP to achieve the same velocity as it does SL. But enough negatives...

   What's remarkable about BP to me is it gives up nothing in the area of ballistics and accuracy. I've  found a compressed charge of Swiss 3F will typically exceed by a significant margin the original 38-40 and 44-40 loads and I don't have to wonder if chamber pressures are too high. I recently took a "guys trip" with three buddies and took my Sporting Rifle along. I had already regulated the ladder sight at 100, 200 and 300 yds. with the BP load. We found a rock measuring about 16" x 24" across a dry creek bed behind the cabin and lasered it at 326 yds. distance. Once we figured out how much to hold into the crosswind, we gave that poor rock hell, and my buddies were dumbfounded that a BP loaded 44-40 could shoot with that kind of consistency.

   So, is BP Holy? Not to me, but it does have its place and will continue to do so as long as I can heft a rifle to my shoulder.

   Like Crow Choker, I'm not trying to wire brush anyone's butt crack, but have my views, like anyone else.

CHT

 

[wildman1]

Much agreement with postings above...and I'l report a few minor oddities/side notes:

I'll have to say that cleaning my non-BP guns got a whole lotta easy AFTER I started using my own cast bullets (relatively soft alloy) and my BP bullet lube. An excellent cleaning solvent has been a variation of Ed's Red formula (none of the "P" ingredients).

Regarding leading with SL - the above bullets/lube produce minimal leading, even at 1400+ in a magnum revolver.
I frequently see a small bit of lead with my BP guns (cartridge & C&B), but...I never see it in the bore or chambers, only on the cleaning patches as it comes out by the time I've run the first dry patch.

Slim

Yer right about the BP lubed smokiless bullets and the lead on patches but not in the bore. This has been my experience also MS. wM1
Also noted yer correct on cleaning with ER.