Old BP Shooter becoming a New BP Shooter

[Dave T]

Back about 1985, after a short fling with Pyrodex I became a full time black powder cartridge shooter. Back then GOEX was all there was and it was gospel that you cleaned your guns the minute you got home from the range, and running a few wet patches through the barrel and chambers before you left the range wasn't a bad idea either. That was my standard procedure up until late 1994 when life got in the way and I had to give it all up.

Now in my old age I find the love of the black powder cartridge era and guns is still there and I want to get back to it on a limited basis. Limited because I have some severe disabilities that keep me from ever shooting in matches again and even limit range sessions when I can do load development or just shoot for fun. Getting home and unloading the truck is a major accomplishment on the bad days (smile).

I figured I'd go the smokeless route because of the above but it hasn't taken but a few range trips to realize that is not going to be very satisfactory. Shooting a 45 Colt SAA doesn't feel, look or sound right without the soft push, the billowing smoke and the sulfur stink of black powder.

Again, trying to compromise I looked into Triple 7 and APP, neither of which were around back when. From some of the stuff I've read they are at least as corrosive as BP and in some cases more. Good grief! Might as well shoot black powder...but what about the clean up. Well, I also have read some things that indicate Swiss and Schuetzen powders are a far cry from the GOEX I used to shoot, particularly in terms of clean up.

Could some of you experienced, current black powder shooters educate and old, fading geezer in what's up with the black powder scene today as far as shooting and cleaning these new offerings goes? I definitely need some schooling.

Dave

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Dave T
Please note my response posted on the hand loading site.
I am under the impression that Alliant Black MZ is APP in a different bottle. If so,  it is available from Powder Valley Inc check their web site.
Yr 'Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Drydock]

I load GOEX Old Eynsford.  After a days match, no cleaning, 50 rounds thru a .45 Colt SAA, I wipe it off and take it home.  Next day or two, no hurry,  I take out the cylinder and set it under the hot water tap.  I run some hot water thru the bore out of the tap as well.  Run a dry patch or two thru the bore and cylinder.  Run a oily patch or two thru the cylinder.  They don't need to come out white, grey is fine.  Use a proper fitting jag btw.  Wipe out the frame with an old greasy rag (ballistol)  poke at the innards with a Ballistol q-tip.  Drip some Ballistol in the action and work a few times.  Put back together, wipe down and put away. Takes about 15 minutes.  Once a year take it apart on a slow winters day and detail it. 

Black powder corrosion is greatly overstated if the proper bullet lube and lubrication is used (My bullet lube is beeswax and olive oil)  Most corrosion in the past was due to corrosive primers.  The above Colt has seen nothing but various black powders for 20 years now.  No corrosion, bright shiny barrel.  Some tarnish on the hammer sides, but I like that frankly.  I clean with plain water, hot is nice, cold is fine.  I've forgotten the gun for a week, no corrosion. 

I use black powder to clean out smokeless fouling.  Its easier to clean, and more obvious to see.

[Blackpowder Burn]

+1 What Drydock said.  I shoot a 2 or 3 day match with my guns before cleaning.  No corrosion issues at all.  I shoot everything from 32-20, 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, 38-55, 40-65 and 45-70 with Goex.  I've used regular Goex, Goex Olde Eynsford, and Swiss - no difference in any of them.

As he said, as long as you have plenty of the proper BP compatible bullet lube, no issues.

[Dave T]

You guys make me think I was operating under some serious misconceptions 25-30 years ago. Of course I was simply doing what was passed on to me by others, largely muzzle loaders as I was kind of on the fore front of BP cartridge shooters, at least in my area.

Thanks for the feedback and additional information. More research and more thinking is obviously in order (smile).

Dave

[Blackpowder Burn]

I got a lot of the same misinformation when I started shooting BP about 5 years ago.  I got straightened out by reading a lot on this forum and experimentation.  I actually find BP a lot easier to deal with than smokeless.  I even load it on a progressive press, the only difference being that I install an aluminum hopper on my powder measure and ground it.

[reloader4410]

I started using those little steam cleaners, the red one. I mix a little windex with vinegar & water, steam does a great job. then run a few patches, then oil with ballistol.. Hope this helps. Happy trails.

[w44wcf]

Dave T,
Sorry to hear of your life challenges. I've been shooting b.p. in cartridges (44-40, 45 Colt) for 16 years now so I am still a teenager....at least in that arena.

As the parts have mentioned, b.p. is nowhere near as corrosive as Pyrodex.  With b.p I normally  clean within a few days at the most but one 1time i left a rifle fired with b.p. uncleaned for 3 weeks in a fairly dry environment just to see what might happen. The fouling in the bore had turned white in color and just 1 wet patch pretty much removed it all. A couple more patches and the bore sparkled. No hint of corrosion whatsoever.

That is not true with Pyrodex which, in part, contains the same ingredient found in corrosive priming. During my learning process, I  stupidly left a revolver fired with Pyrodex uncleaned for several days. I was horrified to see the amount of corrosion that had taken place. Having said that, it works very well as a b.p. substitute. Just clean after shooting and all will be well.

Regular Goex, Goex Olde Enysford, Swiss, KIK, Schuetzen will all produce great accuracy. Some do foul more than others which means in a repeating rifle, those powders are best paired with bullets that carry a larger amount of lube. Thankfully, the "Big Lube" bullets were developed and work the best with those powders.

Olde Eynsford & Swiss foul the least and work very well with historically correct 2 lube grooved bullets in the 38-40, .44-40 and .45 Colt. In my experience.

Welcome back to b.p. shooting!

w44wcf

[Crow Choker]

I always try to clean my BP cap guns and metallic shooting conversions ASP, but if any time restraints or just feelin like I don't want to do it are present, I go about it several ways, has worked for me since 1972 when I got into BP shooting.

1) A spray down with WD-40 down the bores and into the cylinder and around the nipples, then letting the excess drip away with muzzle down. I then lay the gun on some old newspaper until a through job can be done.
2) Sometimes I do the same but break the revolver down into barrel, cylinder, and 'the rest'. Sometimes the two prior methods get a light scrubbing with a patch and solvent (ballistol or even WD), then a spray down with WD-40.

I've down this at times in the heat of summer and cold of winter, anywhere from doing the final cleaning a day or two later, even up to a week. I've had the guns lay in a basement where the humidity doesn't get much lower than 60%. I've never had any ill effects to the gun surface, ie rust or to bore. For cap n' balls I use a lubed wad under ball of bee's wax, tallow, and/or olive oil (what ever suits me at the time as far as ratio). My BP shootin conversions and OT (44 Colt)(and a new 38 Spec) get/will get DD's P. Lube and/or SPG with  Mav Dutch 44 and  Snakebite 38 bullets. I always try to clean ASP as previously mentioned, but my two methods have always worked, but as I tend to 'baby' my shootin irons, ASP is best, but can't always be done. I recently bought a can of Hoppes 'Gun Medic and Lube', while I'll probably use it mostly on other firearms, I plan on at least giving it a try with the BP guns. I know thee ol' argument of using anything but water or moosemilk on BP firearms, but as with the WD40, any oil residue gets cleaned in the final cleaning of any guns sprayed down for later cleaning, I've never had any problems with residue buildup from petroleum based oils. Works for me since '72, so I'll keep on. Have good day all! Crow

[Navy Six]

Dave, don't feel bad about all the misconceptions regarding blackpowder. At one time I subscribed to most of the gun magazines and they repeated the same old misinformation time after time. As a matter of fact, most are still doing so which led me to realize these "experts" didn't have as much experience as it appeared. It wasn't until Mike Venturino started writing about these things and "The Blackpowder Cartridge News" was published about 20 years ago that you started to get solid information concerning blackpowder. And of course this site is full of people with real life experience as well. Hope your condition improves. I just back from a Cowboy shoot today where one of the shooters was celebrating his 87th birthday!! Just keep doing what you can.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Yep, Venturino also got me headed down the BP path.  I love his articles and books (I have them all) on the subject.

[Abilene]

I do similar to Crow Choker.  Before putting my cartridge guns away after shooting a match with BP, I spray down the gun with Ballistol, down the bore, cylinder holes, metal surfaces, then put them in their cases.  I may get to them a week later.  Maybe two weeks or more.  No problems and very easy cleanup.  And some of these are Charcoal Blue guns, which WILL rust if residue is left on them.

[Drydock]

http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Sixguns-West-Mike-Venturino/dp/1879356872

You should have this book.  No BP revolver shooter should be without it.

[Dave T]

http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Sixguns-West-Mike-Venturino/dp/1879356872

You should have this book.  No BP revolver shooter should be without it.

Drydock,

I was shooting bp cartridge when Mr. Venturino first came on the scene. But then he's now famous and I'm a busted up old lawman trying to re-invent the wheel...so I ordered his book (LOL). It'll give me something to read besides the computer screen. (smile)

Got another question for all you BP cartridge reloaders. I was hoping to be able to load BP cartridges on a progressive loading machine (in my case a Dillon SDB) after some posts by other members on the reloading forum saying they did. I called Dillon today and got a very negative reaction from them claiming it was totally out of the question to use black powder through one of their powder measures. They said BP and plastic don't mix.

Are they saying what the lawyers are telling them to say, or are the folks here who told me they load BP with a progressive playing with a bomb in front of their faces, not knowing when it will blow?

I'm just a tad confused on this one.

Dave

[Gabriel Law]

I want a definitive answer to that same question.  I have read and seen that static electricity WILL NOT IGNITE black powder.  It has no heat, and the powder requires heat to ignite.  But I'd like someone who actually loads in their Dillon press to confirm my suspicions...that it is perfectly safe to do so.

[Dave T]

Gabriel and any others interested in this question,

Had another thought since this morning. The Dillon rep said black powder doesn't mix with the plastic parts of the powder measure. I figured he was talking about the powder reservoir since most of the rest of the measure is metal castings and/or aluminum. Then it occurred to me that these days black powder is being delivered in plastic (they probably have some other highfalutin name for it) containers. If the danger is static charges, and Gabriel questioned that threat, is it any more likely in a powder reservoir than in a container you dump powder from and back into?

Inquiring (old) minds still want to know!

Dave

[Monsai52]

Dave T,

I was also loading BP in C&B revolvers back in the '70s, and never had any issues with rust or corrosion, even after leaving my guns uncleaned for a week or more; except for the one time I used Pyrodex, and was shocked to see the amount of rust that had appeared after a week.  No more substitutes.

I've recently started to load some BP cartridge for my SAAs, so I'm relatively new to this also.  I don't load on a progressive, but what I've tried, and it seem to be working, is to use the newer hi-tec coated bullets over a beeswax wad.  After I size, prime and charge the case, I use the case mouth to cut out a disk from an approximately 1/8" sheet of beeswax, then seat and crimp the bullet.  I've shot up to 100 rounds of 45 Colt through my SAA, without all that much fouling.  This might not work in a rifle, but in the short bbls of my SAAs it seems to work fine.  A big advantage is I can use the same bullets that I normally use for smokeless.  

As to the plastic hopper on your powder measure, if you're concerned about static, just wipe the inside with one of those anti-cling dryer sheets; you should have no problems.

Best regards,    

[Gabriel Law]

I am going to set up my Dillon 650 to load black powder into 44-40 brass.  I'll start with just a 1/2 cup of powder first, and if I live to see the end of that, I'll try 3/4 cut, etc. until I can fill the hopper.So if you don't hear from me, I'll be visiting another Gabriel, hopefully.

[wildman1]

I would pre prime cases before loading BP with a press. Reason? In the past year I have seen 3 cases where primers detonated while  being loaded an a progressive or multi stage press. Also a good idea to use a hopper made for BP. Better to be safe before than sorry after. wM1

[Dave T]

wm1,

Dillon never mentioned that but it's a very valid point, worth thinking about. It may be more important than worrying about the plastic powder hopper.

Punch out the old primers separately and remove the primer punch from the FL sizing die on the progressive press. Prime a batch of cases ahead of time, then when it's time to load ammo just put the primed case in station #1 and run through the cycle as usual.

Thanks for idea,

Dave