What "filler" to use for 44-40 BP

[w44wcf]

Dan,
I use Poly Shot Buffer in replicating the historic 25gr  and 28 gr. loadings of the Henry cartridge in the .44-40. It works great and gives excellent accuracy. 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/695248/bpi-shot-buffer-original-500cc-approximately-1-2-lb

w44wcf

[mehavey]

Fillers, like grits, cornmeal etc. have a tendency to cause problems down the road....

Having used cornmeal for a coon's age, have you really
encountered moisture issues ?  I would have presupposed
that the case was relatively airtight -- especially with lube
as sealant.

[Trader Dan]

Well, I could not stand it. I loaded 100 rounds of 44-40 with 30 grains of GOEX 2F under some Big Lube Mav Dutchman bullets lubed with SPG lube. No filler needed and I did get some compresion. Now I just need to get to the range and smoke it up!

I used my Belding and Mull powder dispenser. That thing works great. I would like to have a micrometer drop tube though. I contacted Belding and Mull and they don't have them. I am watching Epay as I have seen them there before.

[mehavey]

You might call MVA and check out their micrometer drop tube
that's designed to go w/ their "B&M"-like visible powder measure.
https://montanavintagearms.com/product/reloading/micrometer-scale/


(Here's the whole package that I've been using for many years)
https://montanavintagearms.com/product/reloading/black-powder-measure/

[Trader Dan]

Yep, gonna order one of thier micrometer drop tubes. I really like the B&M measure.

[mehavey]

Their (MVA's) drop tube is exactly ½" (0.500) in OD.
Make sure that'll fit into the B&M before ordering...   

[Trader Dan]

Their (MVA's) drop tube is exactly ½" (0.500) in OD.
Make sure that'll fit into the B&M before ordering...   

OK thanks. I measured my B&M drop tube and it measured .497. I need to measure the hole the tube goes in. There is a small amout of play in the tube.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Just thought I would chime in with another opinion.

I loaded up some rounds with cornmeal as a filler a bunch of years ago.

Just not worth the extra effort.

These days I always use a full charge of FFg in 45 Colt and 44-40. Comes to about 2.2CC.

Recoil? Not a problem.

[Mean Bob Mean]

Howdy pards!

So what I need to know is this. What filler should I use . . .

Dear sir:

Filler takes up space best occupied by more black powder.

Cheers,

Mean Bob

[Trader Dan]

I might get a chance to get to the range next week and see how my BP loads work.

[Flatbush]

I was going to use Cream of Wheat, but it seemed too "soupy" after cooking it per the recipe on the box.

[wildman1]

Gotta use it "al dente". wM1

[Trader Dan]

SCORE!!!!! Sort of. Finally got to the range and shot my black powder loads. In my rifle, they shot very accurately and with no problems. 30 grains by weight of Goex 2f under a Mav Dutchman bullet lubed with SPG. I did find out my rifle is shooting low and to the left but that is OK for what I am using it for. I was happy!

However, I did have some problems with my revolver. I was able to shoot 10 rounds of black powder in my 44-40 Cimarron revolver with no problems. They were accurate at about 15 yards so I was very pleased. I notice the cylinder was getting stiff from the BP fouling so I decided to shoot some more black powder loads just to "test the waters" as it were. This is where the problems started. I loaded one skipped one and loaded another one. No problems. On the third chamber, I was able to load the chamber and turn the cylinder about 1/2 cartridges worth and it locked up tighter than old Cooter's hat band. I could not move the cylinder in either direction. The hammer in the half cock position. I could not move the hammer either. I decided to pull the cylinder pin and remove the cylinder. Now don't cringe too much but the only way I could get the pin out was to depress the pin release and use my Leatherman tool pliers to pull it out. I dropped the black powder loads out, took some Ballistol and water aka moose milk and cleaned the exterior of the cylinder and the inside of the gun and tried my smokeless loads. Same thing. So I put the gun up and sulked then I shot my pistol we are not supposed to mention here and was happy again. Flashback: After I loaded the cartridges, I took the cylinder out of both of my 44-40 revolvers and dropped each cartridge into the cylinder to make sure they would drop in with no problems. I was using the cylinders as a case gage and all of them dropped in with no problem. So I  wonder why this problem cropped up?  Would I be correct in assuming that black powder residue had built up inside the chambers and was preventing the cartridges from dropping all of the way in? I looked at a couple of the cartridges at eye level with the cylinder out of the gun I did see a small gap between the rim on the cartridge and the face of the cylinder.  A couple of thousands maybe? When I got home, I held the cylinder up to the light and could see what I think was fouling but it was hard to tell. I did not see a ring of black powder in any of the chambers.
I have two Cimmaron revolvers. One is an Evil Roy version and the other one is a plain Jane version. The plain Jane version is the one I had out today.
Very interesting.    

Ideas, suggestions, comments?

[wildman1]

 If you find it hard to load use a bronze brush in your cylinder chambers through the loading gate to remove some of the fouling, a drop or two of the moosemilk on the front of the cylinder where the pin enters would take care of the pin not coming out. you should be able to shoot all day using BP and those steps to prevent fouling buildup.
This is all said assuming you have used the proper cleaning and lubrication for BP prior to shooting.
I have shot as many as 75 rounds with my 44-40's without cleaning using those simple procedures.
wM1

[Trader Dan]

OK there Wildman, you got me there. Proper cleaning and lubrication prior to shooting Black Powder? Have I missed something about cleaning and lubing? What is different about cleaning and lubrication prior to shooting black powder as opposed to "normal" cleaning and lubrication? I use CorrosionX to clean and lube my guns.  I like Ballistol and will use it in the field as Moosemilk to keep the gun shooting during matches.

The pin has always been hard to remove even if the gun has not been fired. I am thinking I need to do some tweaking to make it easier to remove.

Or maybe I should send the gun back to Cimmaron and have them go over it? 

[wildman1]

Get all of the petroleum products removed from your gun before you lube them with BP compatible lube. Ballistol, lithium grease, bore butter etc. all work fine. as far as the pin being hard to remove, some are that way. Clean all of the lube from the cly and the pin. Coat the pin with magic marker and with the cly removed slide the pin into it any high marks should show up, use some automotive finishing cloth 5-600 grit to polish the pin a very small amount. The cly should also have a removable bushing that usually comes out with a little difficulty. A brass punch or wood dowel will usually remove it. Remove it from the back of the cly driving it to the front. The ones that I have had a small ridge left on the back end from the milling process. This too should be polished a little to ease removal. No need to send something back that just requires a little tlc. wM1

[Abilene]

... I looked at a couple of the cartridges at eye level with the cylinder out of the gun I did see a small gap between the rim on the cartridge and the face of the cylinder.  A couple of thousands maybe? ...

I believe you have an ammo problem.  That small gap where the cartridge is not totally seated is enough to tie up the gun, yes.  Uberti 44-40 chambers are pretty tight.  Sometimes people have to adjust their dies (Lee especially) to set the shoulder back a bit more, although since most of your ammo works okay that is probably not the issue.  What brand of brass and what size bullet?  If you are using a .429 bullet, you may need to stick with Starline or Winchester brass, as they are thinnest in the neck.  Remington brass and some others are too thick and the round will not completely chamber uinless using smaller diameter bullets.  In my case, even the .429 with Winchester brass is iffy as occasionally a bullet doesn't seat perfectly straight (Lee dies) and that bit of bulge on one side of the brass will make it hard to chamber.  Also your crimp can bulge out a bit if not set correctly and cause this issue, but again since most of yours drop in okay, that is less likely to be the issue.  

I doubt that it is fouling problen. Take the round that won't seat fully in the chamber and see if it does the same in other chambers, plus take a round that does chamber okay and see if it drops all the way into each cylinder hole.  That should tell you something.  If you send it back to Cimarron they are going to take some Black Hills ammo and see if it works with that.  If it does, they will send it right back to you.

[Trader Dan]

Thanks Abilene. It shot 10 rounds just fine and I have not had any problems with smokeless powder. Just black. The problem cropped up after I had shot 10 rounds of black. The cylinder was getting stiff due to the fouling. I even tried to get some of my smokeless cartridges to load and they had the same identical problem a the black powder loads. Completely different lot of ammo.I use Starline and RP brass mainly. I am using RCBS Cowboy dies. I also have a Lyman 310 tool with 44-40 dies but I do not like it. I am using Mav Dutchman bullets sized to .427 lubed in a RCBS Luber sizer with SPG lube. And I am sure I checked all of the cartridge using the cylinder out of my revolver before I put them in the box. 

I am going to load some more and try them in my Evil Roy revolver and see if I have the same problem.

Thanks for your advise. It is well taken.

[Montana Slim]

Trader Dan,

I have an early ASM frontier six-shooter....it also has tight chambers, compared to my rifles.
I remove the revolver cylinder & use during reloading setup to ensure loaded cartridges will chamber.

I'm using Lee 44-40 dies modified to allow me to set the shoulder back to a minimum condition.
Used this setup (3 dies) for years. I noticed some cartridges still not chambering fully in the revolver. Simple, I moved the ones not chambering into a separate carton, for rifle use only. Over time, the mouths of 44-40 cartridges will sometimes not be fully square to the reloading dies ans this seems to be part of the reason rounds ended up a bit off kilter. I found some other reasons too.

My solution was to add the Lee factory crimp die for 44-40. Seat the bullet with the original die (have the roll crimp backed all the way off), then crimp with the separate Lee die.

Solved ALL these minor, but troubling issues. I now can load the most awful looking case mouth having obvious defects....and it drops right into the ASM revolver cylinder.

I now load using a 4-station Lee Classic Turret. Works like a charm. I load so fast now that I have to pay close attention to the powder hopper.

BTW, I'm using the MAV-44 sized to .428 Deer Tallow/Beeswax lube 31 grains of FF.

Almost forgot the main trouble your having.....Crimp. If your using a roll crimp, this can affect the size of the brass (diameter) vs. the "factory Crimp" die I recomend. Totally different approach. I believe the fouling at the case mouth is preventing the roll-crimped cases to bind when the try to pass that spot in the chamber.

Next could be the amount of powder & compression. I find a load just barely up to the base of the bullet loads easiest. Drop tubes and compression aren't needed in the 44-40. It could be "ok" as long as your not bulging or needing an excessive bullet seat force & crimp (possible issues due to these conditions).

My Dad had similar issues with his Uberti 38-40 revolvers. All better now.

Slim

[Bunk Stagnerg]

If you use regular hominy grits and a bullet lube based on butter flavor shortening when you are shooting it smells like breakfast time in Georgia.
Yummy
Bunk