1860 Henry Conversion

[Bunk Stagnerg]

I am not sure if this is in the correct place, but I am trying to duplicate the original rim fire round with a center fire one.

Does anyone know of a source of a lifter that will load .45 Cowboy Special rounds in an 1860 Henry?

When loaded with real gun powder that would more or less duplicate the original .44 Henry flat round.
Thanks
Bunk

[FriscoCounty]

The Smith Shop: http://www.thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html

[Coffinmaker]

Yup.  Plus one to FriscoC.
I have 4 Henry rifles running Carrier Blocks from "The Smith Shop."  They work a treat.  On the plus side, you can get 10 Rounds in an
18 1/2 inch Henry Carbine.  Shooting a 24 inch, you can fill it up about 18 rounds.  Or, for CAS you can make spacing sticks that will
fill the excess magazine space and prevent magazine detonation from losing control of the follower.  And grip the barrel well out from
the frame 
C45S cases also work a real treat with BP or Subs.  I like APP a lot.

Coffinmaker

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Thanks y'all
Bunk

[FriscoCounty]

One caveat with any short cartridge carrier.  You do need a short push rod of some kind to assist the loading the last cartridge to ensure it goes past the stop in the carrier.  Many use a short piece of antler or an empty cartridge with a longish dowel glued in it.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Thanks for the information Frisco,
I always have a spare .45 Colt round in my belt to cover for a mis fire and  that should work.
Bunk

[Coffinmaker]

Ah .... well ...... ah ....... not ...... quite ...... sorta...
FriscoCounty suggests you need some form of push stick or something to seat the C45S case in past the cartridge stop.  Not quite

I think Frisco thinks your shooting a "side loader" such as a '66 or a '73.  Where by, you would need to shove the last cartridge in past
the cartridge stop.  With an 1860 Henry, there is no need.  When you load, the cartridges will just stop at the cartridge stop.  Unless you have some sort of big Hole in your side plate 

Now to save you some money.  Since the 1860 Henry is a "Front loader," and fancy carrier block is unnecessary.  Remove the carrier and
bolt from your rifle.  Place a dummy C45S cartridge with bullet in the carrier with the nose of the bullet just behind the front of the carrier,
mark the carrier just at the back of the cartridge rim.  That is where you want the front of your cartridge stop.  Drill and tap the carrier
in the center of the cartridge channel for a 6-32 set screw.  Cut a notch in the side of the bolt to clear the set screw.  Shorten the set screw until it clears the flat side of the bolt.  Make it flush with the outside of the carrier.  You now have a carrier set up for C45S.
This modification will set you back about .38 cents and one or perhaps two cups (cup = the time required to sip a cup of coffee while you work)

I'll send you my bill 

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Maker of Coffins
Thanks for the tip, but it came too late the new part came by US Mule today.
I might try that trick on one of my '66 guns and still would be fun to shoot with my open top Colts.
Bunk

[FriscoCounty]

Coffinmaker is right.  My Bad.  I was thinking about my 66, which does have the carrier block to convert it from .44 Spcl to .44 Russian.

Coffinmaker can confirm, but I believe the set screw modification will only work on the Henry, since it is a front loader.  The set screw would prevent loading cartridges from the gate, which is behind the carrier.

For rifles with the King's improvement for loading, the carrier must allow the cartridge to slide in from the rear.  Hence the Cowboy carrier with the hinged cartridge stop forward of the loading gate.  It is pushed out of the way when the cartridge is loaded.  Then, when down, stops the cartridge so the front is close enough to the front of the carrier to prevent the back end of a second cartridge from blocking the lifting of the carrier. 

[Coffinmaker]

Yup.  Fresco is correct.  The set screw ONLY works on Front Loading 1860 Henry rifles.

Coffinmaker

[Dave T]

A little off topic but since the OP wanted something closer to the original 44 Henry rimfire, I sure wish someone (listening Henry Repeating Arms) would offer a Henry chambered for the 44 Russian. That's a cartridge that's available now and loaded with a 200g bullet would sure be closer to the original than the 44-40 or any 45.

Wishful thinking in the desert,
Dave

[Coffinmaker]

Dave,

Hate to tell ya.  NO I don't.  You can set up a 44 Special chambered 1860 Henry to run .44 Russian cases in about half an hour and it
will cost ya about .39 Cents.  And, It's reversible.  Works a treat.

Coffinmaker

PS:  One other thing.  If your going to run Black Powder or Subs, in straight walled cases, in a Toggle Link Rifle, you WILL need to add
"Positive Slam Down" for the Carrier Block.

[Dave T]

Dave,

Hate to tell ya.  NO I don't.  You can set up a 44 Special chambered 1860 Henry to run .44 Russian cases in about half an hour and it
will cost ya about .39 Cents.  And, It's reversible.  Works a treat.

Coffinmaker

PS:  One other thing.  If your going to run Black Powder or Subs, in straight walled cases, in a Toggle Link Rifle, you WILL need to add
"Positive Slam Down" for the Carrier Block.

OK...here's a couple dumb questions. Number 1 where do i find a "44 Special chambered 1860 Henry"? Dumb question #2, what on earth is a "positive slam down"?

Dave

[Coffinmaker]

Dave,

Your don't have one??  Oops my bad.  I was under the impression (i"m very impressionable) you had a 44 Henry.  Well, Humpff.  Why was
I thinking that.  Sometimes just "thinking" hurts ...... a lot    Well, then never mind.  Not applicable.  No broken bones, no blood, it's
fixable. 
As rare as 44 Henry's are, if you find one, you immediately steal it.  Simple.

Positive Slam Down is establishing immediate contact between the Lever of a Toggle Link Rifle and the back face of the Carrier Block Arm.
In a stock rifle, the lever just "taps" the back of the arm and starts it down.  The lever side spring powers it the rest of the way down.
Except, as the carrier block gets fouled and the mortice gets fouled, the carrier block may well jam half way down, stopping the rifle.
With positive slam down the lever face is in constant contact with the carrier block arm and forces it down even if the carrier and mortice are fouled.

Coffinmaker

[Dave T]

As rare as 44 Henry's are, if you find one, you immediately steal it.

Not trying to beat a dead horse (although I haven't heard the nag whinny for some time now) but who offered the 44 Special Henry in the past? How long were they in production? Any idea where I might find one?

Being a former law man I'm dis-inclined to steal one, but I'd sure like to buy one if I run across such a critter! (smiley face goes here)

Dave

[Coffinmaker]

Uberti made em.  It might even be "makes" them.  I haven't seen one NIB in 44 Special in a long long time.  One watches the sale boards
here, SAS Wire, Gunbroker, addfiniteum as it twer.  Some rare.  If you happen to be chasing "authenticity" they are considered by some
to be priceless.  There is a 'nother ready source. 
44-40 Henry is a good source.  First find a good smith, who does barrel re-lining.  Snap up a nice used 44-40 or NIB 44-40.  Take it to your
trusted ally.  Have him sleeve the breach end of the 44-40 barrel and then re-chaber to 44 Special.
Then a couple of simple mods and your loading 44 Russian cartridges up the gazoo.  OR:

Pick up a 45 Colt Henry and set it up to run Cowboy 45 Special cases.  Probably the best option.  My 4 personal Henrys are set up
this way.

Coffinmaker

[Steel Horse Bailey]

My 4 personal Henrys are set up this way.

Coffinmaker

WOW!  FOUR!!!   I'd love to have ONE!  You're a lucky man, Sir CoffinMaker! 

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Conversion complete and 18 rounds down range. It was no problem to do the only thing that took any time was removing one of those little spring screws on the receiver.I sheared the top of the screw completely off with an impact driver but could not get it to turn.
In desperation I used a punch and hammer to shear the tiny screw off. It is an iron frame Henry had it been brass that might not have worked. Fortunately in the stuff box I had a spare screw.
It hits dead center at 30 yards and about a foot below POA ay 75 yards. Load is 180 grain BIG LUBE and enough FFFg to compress about 1/16inch with a firm roll crimp.
i am a happy cowboy
Tr Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Coffinmaker]

Hey Bunk!!

Super Cool.  Two questions for ya, no, three.  Actually it doesn't matter.  Two, Three, Four ... Mox Nix.  Anyway, Does your rifle have a
stock action??  Have you added (or know ho to) Positive Slam Down??  Are you shooting BP??  Smokeless??  Have you changed out
the lever side springs??  Do you drink Ale??  Do you ....... never mind.
With a stock action, the only thing that powers the Carrier Block down is the lever side spring.  It's too heavy.  And, even being too heavy,
it WILL allow the carrier block to jam the rifle when it gets dirty.  Need to fix that.
You need Positive Slam Down.
Shooting BP in a .45 you really need Positive Slam Down.
The other lever side spring will wear out the cam on the lever.  It's too heavy.
SO .............
You need to go to SlixSprings and get a set of Slix.  Install em.  The lever side springs are 35% of resistance cycling the lever.  Trust me,
I know this thing.
While you have it apart to install the Lever Side Springs, Add Positive Slam Down.  Ask me, I'll tell you how, or ....... fix you up.
Now that you have actually gotten the screws out for the first time, it gets easy.  Trust me, I know this thing too.

Coffinmaker 

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Hi Coffin Maker
The rifle is pretty much stock at this time and has only had about 100 rounds through it almost all BP loads. The right side has a Pioneer Gun Works spring because I didn't have a screw to replace the one I shared off.

I am loading real Gun Powder (Du Pont, GOEXor KIK depending on what is handy) in those short cases which, I believe, closely duplicates the .44 Henry rim fire cartridge loading. I don't have the numbers at hand but I think it is 1.3 c/c volume of FFFg which is compressed by the 180 grain Big Lube™ bullet.

Other than that the gun is at present stock. And FYI I do enjoy and occasional dab of Mr. John Walker's Black product after the guns are put away.
 
I am unaware of the "positive slam down" but one of my '66 carbines in .45 Colt is pretty picky about closing the lever. Do it lightly and the lifter does not seat so tell me more. That sounds like a "got to" for BP rifles.

I will get on the horn and call BadMan about the spring set in the AM and thank you for the help.

Yr'  Obt' Svt'
Bunk