Ready to load blackpowder for my 44-40 pistol and rifle.

[Trader Dan]

Ready to load some Black Powder for my 44-40s. Two questions.

Loaded some black in 45-120 many years ago. Very limited experiance with this black magic.  

Is a drop tube really necessary for CAS pistol loads?

And how much should I compress the powder?

Bought some BP loads from Buffalo and they were loaded with 35 grains of black. One of the members of my club where I am going to shoot says he loads 25 grians of black and uses corn starch for a filler. NO need for more powder than that he says. Might try that.

Suggestion/comments?

[Lefty Dude]

For my Revolvers I use a filler, Rifle not so much. I compress 1/16".

[Good Troy]

I shoot 44-40 in the rifle only.  I get about 1/16 to 1/8" compression.  I don't use a drop tube.

If I had a 44-40 revolver, I would reduce the powder charge for them to around 25 grains with a 200 grain bullet by using a filler.  That's about the same loading I currently use in my 45 Colt revolvers with a 45 S&W (Schofield) cartridge and the same weight bullet.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

A lot depends on the burning rate (The number of Fs) of your powder.

If you load as directed above, which will approximate 32 to 35 grains, you will have a substantial load if you use the faster FFFg powder. (I use GOEX, as that is all I can get here North of the Medicine Line.) The MV in a rifle will match original factory specs. In a revolver, it will be above 800 fps, closer to 900 in my experience.

If you use the slower FFg, velocities will be somewhat slower, especially in a handgun. In my Old Vaquero, 5.5", mvs were about 730 more or less. I was aiming to exceed 700fps, which seemed to be the SASS standard at the time.

As I had much more FFFg than FFg, I experimented with reduced charges of FFFg plus a Cream of Wheat (COW) filler. At 21grains of FFFg +filler, I matched the Mvs of full loads of FFg. CAUTION! Not everyone approves of reduced loads with fillers, but I accepted the concept as I was using tank-tough Rugers and an original but relined Win 73 short rifle. Having said that, I experienced no problems or unexpected results.

[Coffinmaker]

My answer is on a slightly different tack.  First question is how much recoil you want to experience.  Second question is what is the bore dimension of your 44-40?? 
For the rifle, it doesn't much matter.  Any load/bullet combination that will cycle in the rifle will be fine.  No enough recoil to worry about.
I would suggest however, you consider "Big Lube" bullets and do away with "cookies" and such nonsense.  With Big Lube bullets enough
sure is carried my the bullet, you gold.  A drop tube is totally unnecessary.  Complete waste of time for pistol type cartridges.  You will
went to match your bullet diameter to your bore.

For handguns, a bit more decisioning.  If the handgun is a 429/430 bore, you have more choices of bullets.  Again, I'd suggest "Big Lube"
bullets so you don't have to mess with "cookies" of grease.  Might peruse Springfield Slim's site for bullets, where you can get down as light
as 150Gr or so bullet weight.  44 "slims" carry a gob of lube.  I'm not a fan of fillers, but were I shooting 44-40 in pistols, I'd reduce the
powder charge to about 20-25Gr, probably 2F, and fill with Cream-0-Wheat.  Same Same, no drop tube is needed.  Same complete waste of time.

Shooting BP is pure FUN.  Also, if you want to get completely away from "lubes" and mess, consider shooting APP.  For the CAS game,
wicked good stuff.

Coffinmaker

[Trader Dan]

Current load is:
6 grains of Trail Boss under Mav Dutchman bullets.

Light recoil is good.

My Cimarron 1866 has not been slugged. The .427 bullets seem to be doing OK. I hit what I aim at which are steel plates at about 20 yards.

Both of my Cimmaron revolvers slugged at .427.

My Evil Roy revolver is very accurate. The P model I bought about a month ago scatters lead all over the target. I know that a large part of that is me as I am not used to shooting wheel guns.

I am using Big Lube Mav Dutchman bullets. Cast from what I was told was wheel weight lead. Reads about 8.5 or 9 Brinell using a Lee hardness tester. Lubed with SPG and sized to .427. Yea I know. I had not slugged my barrels for the revolvers before I had all of the bullets lubed and sized. The next batch will be sized at .428.


What is APP? Powder coating? I am not sure about that process. I see way to many problems with it. But then I have not investigated it. 

[Trader Dan]

Just thought of another question. What is the best way to compress the powder? I am looking at compression slugs. I understand that it is not a good idea to use the bullet to compress the powder because it can deform the bullet. Since I am using wheel weight lead, is compressing the powder with the bullet really a problem?

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Dan, and welcome!

If you put just enough powder in a Black Powder cartridge that you compress the powder between 1/8 to 1/16", you'll have a fine strong BP load.  To lighten the load you can use some filler to take up the space.  I use more black powder to do that.  Congratulations on your choice of Big Lube®LLC bullets.  The Mav Dutchman molds remain best sellers.  They work.

DD-MDA

[Coffinmaker]

Trader Dan,
If one of your handguns is spraying lead, check that the cylinder throats are matched to the bore.  If the cylinder throats are undersize,
the bullets can rattle down the bore.

APP is a Black Powder Substitute.  It makes it's own lube.  Generates a little less recoil than the real stuff.  Fun.

Unless your trying to turn your BP or Sub into a brick, you won't damage bullets compressing powder.  Your not compressing in the true sense, your just eliminating any possible air space.  Seat the projectile, crimp it and GO!!

Coffinmaker

[Trader Dan]

Howdy Dan, and welcome!

If you put just enough powder in a Black Powder cartridge that you compress the powder between 1/8 to 1/16", you'll have a fine strong BP load.  To lighten the load you can use some filler to take up the space.  I use more black powder to do that.  Congratulations on your choice of Big Lube®LLC bullets.  The Mav Dutchman molds remain best sellers.  They work.

DD-MDA

Thanks DD. I bought the mould from you about a year ago and used it for the first time about 3 weeks ago. It came highly recommended by one of the guys in my club. I am getting pretty good results from it. Still learn ing how to properly cast. I just need to dial in what I have.

[Trader Dan]

Trader Dan,
If one of your handguns is spraying lead, check that the cylinder throats are matched to the bore.  If the cylinder throats are undersize,
the bullets can rattle down the bore.

APP is a Black Powder Substitute.  It makes it's own lube.  Generates a little less recoil than the real stuff.  Fun.

Unless your trying to turn your BP or Sub into a brick, you won't damage bullets compressing powder.  Your not compressing in the true sense, your just eliminating any possible air space.  Seat the projectile, crimp it and GO!!

Coffinmaker

OK so do I measure them with a caliper? What is considered undersized? I am new to wheel guns and don't know that much about them. If they are undersized, how can that be fixed?

[Lefty Dude]

A more accurate measurement would be to use a Micrometer.

[Trader Dan]

A more accurate measurement would be to use a Micrometer.

One of these days, I will learn to proof read before I post. What I meant to say was how do I check the chamber throat with a caliper?

Well, I have a problem. I can read a caliper not so much for a mike. And how would I read the diameter of a hole with a mike?

My caliper will go to 4 decimal places. Is the diameter of the chamber throat really that critical? What should the chamber diameter be if the bore slugs to .427?

[Lefty Dude]

You would insert a Pin gauge in the throat, then measure the pin gauge with a Micrometer.

[Trader Dan]

OK, I need to clarify something about the revolver nomenclature.

Do I understand correctly that the throat of the chamber on a revolver is actually the front of the cylinder bores? And the forcing cone is the entrance to the barrel? Is that correct? If the throat is, in fact, undersized can I assume the only way to fix that problem would be to replace the cylinder? Or can the throat be opened to the correct size?

The effect of the throat being undersized is that it would shave lead off of the bullet causing it be ubdersized for the barrel diameter, therefore, it would not contact the grooves and lands properly. Right?

Guys, I really appreciate your help. I can tell you a thing or two about semi-automatic handguns but revolvers are somewhat of  a mystery to me.

[Lefty Dude]

You are correct, the throat is the front of the chamber in the cylinder. Undersize can be correctly by using a chamber reamer. Over-size not so much. I actually prefer an undersize, then it can be matched more closely to the Bore diameter grooves.

I have a Cimarron 45 Colt, that came from the factory with a near perfect correct bore/chamber. The Bore slugs at .450", the chamber throats measure .4505". All chamber throats are the same. This is the most accurate SAA I own. I shoot lead sized at .452" and jacketed, .451".

One way to test your throats is to take a known sized bullet and drop it in the chamber from the rear. The bullet should just slightly hold in the throat. And with little pressure clear the throat. If the bullet is held in the throat and takes fore to expel, of course it is over-size.
This can be done with out the pin gauge and Micrometer.
Most modern 44WCF use .430" bullets. Colts use .427"-.428".

[Trader Dan]

To clarify, if the bullet drops through the cylinder and is just barely held, everything is OK. But if it does not drop through the throat at all, it is oversized? I would think that if the throat was oversized, the bullet would just drop straight through. Did I miss something?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I suspect what was meant was that the BULLET was oversized?

If a bullet drops right through the throat is too big. Get a bigger bullet, if possible. If you are casting, try an unsized bullet. A harder alloy will cast a bit larger.

[Coffinmaker]

Option number three for your lead sprayer.  You'll need two fairly soft bullets, probably dropped from your mold "as cast."  Drive one thru the bore of the lead sprayer.  Measure the diameter of the grooves.  That gives you your bore size.

Take the other bullet and drop in in the back of the cylinder.  It SHOULD stick.  Drive it thru the throat.  Measure the diameter.  Optimum is
for the throat to be slightly LARGER than the bore.  Lefty gave a great example.  if your bore is .428, your throat should be at least .4285
or .429 and .429 bullets would be optimum.

If the throat is SMALLER than the bore, you have a problem.  Example ... if your bore is .428 and the throat swages the bullet down to .426 or so, the bullet is too small for the bore and will rattle around and do some leading.  Or it may just cock a little sideways and
start key holing.  Anyway, if the throats are smaller than the bore, they need to be reamed out with a "Throat Reamer." NOT a
"chamber reamer."

Coffinmaker

[Trader Dan]

Standard or Magnum primers?