Work done on a 3rd Model Dragoon

[LonesomePigeon]

I have a 3rd Model Dragoon that was not very accurate, at 25 yards from a rest it was shooting 4 to 6" about 4-6" left and 18" high. About 5 weeks ago I sent it to have: cylinder chambers reamed, forcing cone cut, muzzle crowned and arbor bedded. They didn't actually ream the cylinder cchambers because they said they were already correct.

It shoots way better now, at 15 yards from a rest it was shooting 2" groups with a couple fliers that were probably my fault, almost dead center but still about a foot high. I'm very happy with that. Also this was a night time session under artificial lights so it might shoot even better in the daytime.

What I'm wondering about now is the cylinder gap. I don't have any way to measure it but when you hold it up to a light you can see a tiny sliver of light at the bottom but at the top the forcing cone is actually touching the cylinder face.  This is also born out by the fact that after shooting it one time there are new scrapes on the cylinder face where the forcing cone it touching. I am wondering why the cylinder gap is canted and if it is bad to continue shooting it this way?

[Major 2]

are you sure the Arbor length corrected ?

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56198.0.html

[Navy Six]

Do you remember if the barrel/cylinder gap looked the same before you sent it out? It should be consistent top to bottom, not "pie" shaped. The reason I ask is because I purchased two new Uberti 2nd model Dragoons in the last two years. I had a heck of a time removing the barrels for the first time as they were tightly fitted near the front of the arbor, BUT they (the arbors) were not bottomed out in their corresponding holes in the barrel. That was the first thing I had to take care of. You mentioned the arbor was "bedded" as part of the job. it would help to know exactly what was done in this area. There are other things that could cause an uneven b/c gap and unless the gap is excessive people shoot these guns with that type of gap all the time, although that is certainly not ideal. Simply driving the wedge in too far may do it. You mentioned your gap is tight enough to scrape the cylinder in places. This is bound to cause some type of functioning issue and its best to have this resolved before much more shooting.

[Kent Shootwell]

Like the others noted it would seem the arbor isn't correct and that would contribute to the high groups as well as the pie shaped gap. Add a spacer in the arbor hole the length of which would correct the gap to an even shape and be about .006 or .008 and see if your groups are lower.

[Coffinmaker]

Hey Lonesome,
One of the things I try to impress on folks as they start out with Cap Guns is the Barrel to Arbor fit.  First a slight caveat.  I have yet to work on ANY type of Uberti built Open Top type gun, where the Barrel to Arbor fit was correct.  Or, even close.  That is the starting point
to setting up ANY Cap Gun.  the first give away is the "pie" shape gap between the cylinder face and the breach end of the barrel.

If your going to spend any amount of time playing with Cap Guns, your first acquisition requires a trip to the local auto parts store, for
a blade type set of feeler gauges.  You absolutely MUST be able to check and fix the Barrel to Arbor fit BEFORE you do anything else.
If your Barrel Lug will snug up past the frame without the cylinder, it must be fixed.  If you and drive in the wedge and have the barrel
contact the cylinder face, it must be fixed.  If you don't fix the barrel Arbor fit, every time you take the gun down for cleaning, you'll have a different gun every time you put it back together.

Try dropping a # 10 brass washer down the arbor hole, or even a # 10 Stainless split washer down the hole and put the gun together.  Then peruse the tutorial by Larsen E. Pettifogger over on "The Open Range."  There should be some form of spacer down the hole in the barrel lug, or some form of spacer added to the end of the Arbor shaft.  It doesn't sound like whom ever you sent it to, did what you wanted.

Coffinmaker

[LonesomePigeon]

They did put a steel button on the end of the arbor. Maybe the bottom of the arbor hole isn't square? Or could it have something to do with the wedge/wedge slot? I will try putting a washer in there and see if it helps.

I'm actually quite happy with the way it shoots now. It's tons better than before. I'm just worried if it's scraping it will degrade accuracy over time.

I will also do a full disassembly/reassembly and see if it changes the POI next time I shoot it. I'll also read Pettifogger's stuff. Thanks all.

[Major 2]

Not trying to be Capt. Obvious here...

have you contacted , Who you sent it too with your question ?

Is the button, threaded and adjustable ? 
The arbor fit defines the gap , the wedge locks the barrel & frame together.
Have you driven the wedge in to far, and over come the gap ?
The gap is a sign that the wedge in correctly or not.

[Noz]

If the arbor fit is correct you can drive the wedge in and not change the barrel cylinder relationship.
I don't know why Uberti cannot understand this?

[LonesomePigeon]

No I never contacted them since I got it back and I don't really want to. Yep the button is too short. It's not adjustable. It also doesn't have a square face, it looks like it's just a screw with the head sanded down and they sanded down too much and at an angle at that.  The best solution would probably be to drill out the button and put a new one in but I don't have the tools for that. I don't know what I'm going to do without tools but I think I can fit a washer around the button, that should square up the contact and if I can get it to fit right I'll JB Weld it in place. Thanks everybody for all your help, I really appreciate it a lot. If I need anything else I'll let you know.

[Major 2]

I'd surely contact them, I figure you paid for the job 
hopefully with someone reputable,  and he'd make it right....

If it was, and they did not ,  or you sent it to " Manny's buddy's Slick'um up & Lip Service."

Might be a service to forewarn others ....

[Coffinmaker]

Well heck.  I hate to see a botched job.  It's always harder to fix a mistake than to do it right in the first place.  I've retired and my
most loving bride would brain me wid a pot were I to start taking work again, so ....... were I to make a suggestion, I'd contact Mike
at Goonsgunworks.  tell him what has been done and perhaps he can fix that screw up without costing you an arm and a leg.  Maybe just a finger or two 

Coffinmaker

[LonesomePigeon]

I think it's gonna be ok, I made a washer that fits around the button. I haven't epoxied it on yet. It's kinda cool, just fits around the button like a ring. Going to shoot it with the washer on and if it works I will JB weld it in place.

[LonesomePigeon]

 I completed the button for the arbor but have not epoxied it on. I may just not epoxy it since it fits perfect and any epoxy will add to the length of the arbor slightly and it would be hard to file it down more once it's affixed to the arbor.

My problem now is the hammer gets sticky at half cock. If I just cock it all the way it's fine but if I put it on half cock, like when I'm loading it, then it's really hard to bring it from half cock to full cock. They did not work on the action so this seems to be something that developed on it's own. It was always a little bit sticky but now it seem really sticky.

[Bruce W Sims]

Hoping noone takes offense at this......
I notice that folks are discussing Ubetri replicas. I just wanted to ask
in passing if this sort of attention needs to be paid to a Model 3 COLT?

Much seems to be made of Model 3 Dragoons being assembled to COLT standards
such that some folks like yours truly still consider them genuine COLTS. When I first
purchased my Dragoon a few years back there was a bit of a "binding" when the
cylinder rotated following disassembly and cleaning. It commonly passes with a few rotations
and after tinkering with the wedge. I have always attributed any headaches to
"user malfunction" but wanted to throw this out for additional input. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Coffinmaker]

Well Bruce.  I'm a gonna rain on your parade just a little.  Na.  I'm gonna rain on it A LOT!!

Second and Third Generation Percussion Guns attributed to be COLT, never saw the inside of a Colt plant.  The vast percentage of Second Generation guns are made up of Uberti parts, finished and assembled by a third party contractor (who now owns a gun company).  The ONLY part of those guns that is actually Colt, is the box they were shipped to the customer in.  A further small percentage of those
second generation guns were made up from parts supplied by Armi San Marco.  Same disclaimer.  Never came close to a Colt factory.

Third generation Percussion guns attribute to Colt also are not Colt.  Not even Uberti.  They are Armi San Marco parts.  Arms San Marco
quality control rivaled that of Yugo.  Nonexistent.  So .... The bottom line.

Second and Third generation Colt percussion guns have exactly the same initial build up problems as Uberti and Armi San Marco, because
they ARE Uberti and Armi San Marco.  THEY ARE NOT COLTS except for the roll marks.

Coffinmaker

[LonesomePigeon]

Yes they are basically Uberti's with Colt markings and a nice finish. That said why would this hammer start sticking at half cock?

One thing I know is, it's not the hand binding on the arbor. I have an Armi San Marcos Walker that had that problem and I fixed it by enlarging and polishing the cut out at the base of the arbor. But this Colt Dragoon I am talking about does not have that problem. I have already checked it and the arbor cut out gives plenty of room for the hand to move. I think it may have something to do with the hammer because there is a fresh scratch on one of the notches in the hammer?

[Coffinmaker]

OK, it's WAG time WAG is a military acronym for Wild Ass Guess.  I can't look at it, nor cycle it to feel the bind, nor check a number of things that cause your malady.  WAG ......... There is a Burr or Rough Spot somewhere.

Check both sides of the hammer for scratches, caused by a rough hand channel.  You may have to clean up the hand channel and polish the sides of the hammer.
Check the bottom radius of the hammer sides to see if the Gripframe is rubbing the hammer.  You may have to relieve one or both sides
of the Gripframe (Backstrap) where it contacts the hammer.  Polish the hammer.
Check for free function of the Bolt and the Trigger Bolt spring.  The spring side of the bolt often has burrs.
Check the back side of the trigger and the front face of the hammer where the two parts meet.  Polish both.
Check the Breach face of the barrel for Burrs.  Polish it anyway.
Check the face of the cylinder for rubbing on the Breach of the Barrel.  The hand will push them into contact when cocking.
Check the bottom of the water table, for carbon deposits from firing.
check the back of the cylinder for scoring and the face of the Thrust Ring.

Attack it with a large HAMMER!!   

Everywhere I mentioned "Polish,"  Polish anyway.  The gun will run smoother.   

Have fun doing all of the above.   

Before you do any of the above ..... have you checked and fix'd the Barrel to Arbor fit??  Thats the first thing to do.

Coffinmaker

[Noz]

This all goes to show that not all action jobs result in improvement.

[Coffinmaker]

Ah poop, I forgot a thing to check.  But first .........

Noz,

All too true.

Nest thing to check, The Main Spring,  Insure the tip of the Main Spring is NOT dragging on the back radius of the hammer.

Coffinmaker

[LonesomePigeon]

I appreciate all the help, especially the list provided by Coffinmaker, thanks pard.

I also just want to emphasize the people I sent it do did not do any action work. They did a fine job on the muzzle crown and forcing cone but they trimmed the arbor fix a bit too much and I just did not feel like sending it back. I corrected the arbor and now will check the stuff on Coffin's list. Most likely I will be sending it to Goon anyways but this does help me understand and it's always fun to learn.