.303 Brit.

[The Trinity Kid]

Hey y'all.

So, at the gunshow this weekend, I snagged an Enfield No. 4 MKI for a good price.  I won't be getting it for two months(part of the deal), which gives me some time to get some dies and build up some ammo.  This leads to my question.  I want to cook up a BP load like the original, mostly for the sheer heck of tossing a big cloud of smoke, though I may consider using one on an elk.  Any ideas on some loads to start with?

--TK

[treadhead1952]

TK,

Unless you are planning on converting your Mk 4 into a Lee-Metford why would you even attempt to run Black Powder in it?  In 1891 they converted the caliber to smokeless and never looked back.  The Lee-Metford had special shallow rifling to use black powder which the Mk 4 does not.  The Mk 4 is a few generations removed into smokeless and I don't think you will enjoy scrubbing out the deeper grooves of the barrel.  It is more designed in keeping with the much higher speed smokeless powder loads of the lighter bullets it was designed to use.  The Lee Metford used a 215 grain Round nosed bullet.

If you want to go after an Elk or even a Moose like they do use the caliber for up in Canada, find some 174 grain bullets and a good powder then work up a decent load based on that.

[Dick Dastardly]

Choose a bullet wisely that will haul enough lube to wet the barrel.  Next, put in enough Holy Black to fill the case within 1/8 to 1/16 inch for proper compression.  Torch 'er off and report back.

DD-MDA

[Coffinmaker]

When one considers running BP through a rifle, designed, built and intended for smokeless, one would not foresee an harmonious
outcome.  Would however, be fun to read about.  

Coffinmaker
(who has been known to point and giggle)

[St. George]

The No4Mk1 was 'never' designed to be a BP round - it was the last of the Lee-Enfield line and staunchly smokeless.

If you want a BP round - look to much older British rifles, but factor in the happy fact that while none since before WWI were BP - they were, in fact, loaded with Cordite.

Yup, you could be the first kid on your block to be able to write the words - 'The smell of cordite' - and not be full of BS, since pretty much everyone who's written about it has never fired, nor smelled that particular smoke.

Use what it was built for - you'll be well-rewarded.

Scouts Out!

[Dick Dastardly]

FWIW, I have a K98 Mauser in 8mm that was reamed to 8mm-06.  It loves black powder  .   .   . but I had to get some gel caps from a health food store to fill with PL-II bullet lube and insert on top of the powder under the bullet.  Lacking a Big Lube bullet design and finding none that would carry enough lube, the gel caps did the work.

No, the powder is not highly compressed, but the rounds shoot good.  The cast bullets weigh in at 173 grains.

You might look into the gel caps to hold the lube for your .303 Brit.

DD-MDA

[Lefty Dude]

Very interesting DD, I would have never thought of that as a solution.

[pony express]

TK, you probably won't be able to come close to the original BP .303 load, they used a formed pellet of BP, inserted into the case before the neck/shoulder was formed. With loose powder, it probably won't be possible to get as much in as they used. Maybe Triple 7 might get a little closer? Probably be easier in the fouling department too.

Something I have read, but can't confirm, the original BP load for the .303 gave higher pressure than the Cordite load that replaced it.  Cordite was much more erosive to the bore, making a switch in rifling style necessary. Hence the change from "Lee-Metford" to "Lee Enfield"

[fourfingersofdeath]

I got my fair share of cordite smoke as a teenager in the Aussie Army Cadets shooting SMLE No1 Mk111 (no star, Cadet rifles were not normally upgraded unless they were sent to the armoury for repair) and as a Tank Troop Leader in Centurion Main Battle Tanks, using the 20Pounder main armament. A rather unique aroma!

An interesting experiment, but I have enough black powder rifles to keep me happy. I do have a very early Lee Enfield, but the barrel has been replaced, I will have a look at the rifling if I remember.

[Dick Dastardly]

Interesting to me. . . The British Spitfire had .303 Brit. guns.  Enough of 'em to shoot the britches off the ME-109s. . .

DD-MDA

[St. George]

Those rounds weren't BP loads, they were cordite...

Scouts Out!

[fourfingersofdeath]

Different approaches to things, the Brits (and us) used multiple 303 machine guns, you guys tended to prefer MaDeuce (50Cal) and a smaller number of guns (50Cal Brownings are freaking huge!).

[Coffinmaker]

Oh .... Not so fast there    Most US built fighters in WW II packed anywhere from 6 to 8 of those freeking huge Brownings.  I don't remember any Brit fighters with more forward firing guns than that. 

That is however, a moot point at this pint in time.  US aircraft no pack either a 20MM Gatling gun or a 30MM Gatling gun.  Just ..... ONE.
I don't however, feel that we're regressing.  One, in this case is enough.  Let us remember, Custer left his Gatling Guns at home.  Not
a harmonious outcome that.

Coffinmaker

[fourfingersofdeath]

I remember some of the Brit fighters having 9 x 303 machine guns. Not saying one set up is better than the other, just noting the different approaches.

The Brits insisted on low(ish) level night time bombing and the Americans bombed from high altitude, both schools of thought still apply apparently.

The Brit's bombing tactics are widely regarded as just getting the German's backs up and as being one of the great military blunders of all time. When the Americans took over, a more intelligent bombing strategy was employed which quickly had a devestating effect on German war production and movement.

An excellent book is Len Deighton's 'Bomber'. The Brits fought reallllllllllll dirty with their bombing. All they ended up doing was to increase German resolve.