Another Centaure found !

Lefty Dude · March 03, 2016, 07:41:33 PM

I attended a Gun Show in Wickenburg Arizona a couple of Weeks ago. Found a Belgium Colt 1860, new in the box and un-fired. The cylinder has been turned.

An early model, S/N 302. brass grip frame, no engraved cylinder & all matching numbers. This piece has never been taken apart, except for now. I am soaking the nipples and the trigger/bolt spring screw with Kroil to loosen up a bit, very tight.

The piece is a bit out of time, the bolt drops a little late and has peened the cylinder notches slightly. This is an easy correction. The Hammer spring is as stiff as a truck spring. Will be replaced.

I could not pass this up, now I have two.

Abilene · March 03, 2016, 08:30:43 PM

Cool! But if there ain't no pictures, it didn't happen!

Coffinmaker · March 03, 2016, 08:46:38 PM

Lefty,
Since you already have slight peening on the notches, be sure to check the bolt fit to the cylinder and break the trailing edge of the
bolt while you have it apart.

If you would like the "full Monty," just ship it to me. I'll go thru it, iron out any gremlins, function check, full action job and shoot it
for point of impact. I should be able to turn it around and get it back to you in, oh, about 2 maybe 3 years

Coffinmaker

Lefty Dude · March 04, 2016, 12:05:29 AM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on March 03, 2016, 08:46:38 PM
Lefty,
Since you already have slight peening on the notches, be sure to check the bolt fit to the cylinder and break the trailing edge of the
bolt while you have it apart.

If you would like the "full Monty," just ship it to me. I'll go thru it, iron out any gremlins, function check, full action job and shoot it
for point of impact. I should be able to turn it around and get it back to you in, oh, about 2 maybe 3 years

Coffinmaker
[/quote

PM me your address, pard. Thanks !

Lefty Dude · March 04, 2016, 12:10:04 AM

I had it at WR, sorry I didn't show it to you Abilene.

Long Johns Wolf · March 04, 2016, 03:24:15 PM

Fantastic, Lefty, I envy you and submit my congrats on the liberation of this very early Centaure.
Please, let me have the inspector marks, i.e. * over letter sideways on the left side of the barrel lug and frame and close to the ELG in oval in the rebate of the cylinder. Are the digits "302" stamped on the breech side of the cylinder? How many rifling grooves in the bore? I guess 7?!
Long Johns Wolf

Lefty Dude · March 04, 2016, 11:32:42 PM

LGW; The inspector mark is, *S , 302 is stamped on the breech side of the Cylinder. Cylinder has no battle Scene engraved stamping, plain and simple. It appears to be a seven groove barrel. Barrel, frame & Trigger guard, along with the Hammer all have the S/N 302.

Question; When was this piece made, in what year ?
What is the nipple thread of this cylinder ? Colt, Pietta or uberti ?

Long Johns Wolf · March 06, 2016, 05:04:09 AM

Thanks Lefty Dude.
#302 is a Centaure Regular New Model Army (RNMA) 1st variation 1st sub-variation.
According to the S/N she is from 1960.
I have inspected less than a handful of these very early 1959/1960 Centaures. They had 3-thread nipples of their own thread design. Look at the pic. It is the one in the middle. Left is from 2nd gen Colt Army, right is from 1972 RNMA.
Long Johns Wolf

Lefty Dude · March 06, 2016, 11:38:09 AM

Thanks for the information. I used my hand impact driver to get the Trigger/Bolt spring retaining screw out. The Cap cones were really tight. After a 24 Hour penetrating oil soak of the cylinder cones. I made a wooden dowel fixture to hold the cylinder as in the Web site Gun Smith section. Then I used my drill press and socket type tool. All came out intact and will clean up for a re-install in the cylinder.
This cylinder will never be used.
My other Centaure is also an early model, C215. This Cylinder has Tresco cones installed, and hopefully it will fit the new piece. I would assume since they are in the same age group it will be a happy marriage, for a short time use.

Thanks so much for your wonderful web site.

I will post photos as soon as I get the piece back together again.

Coffinmaker · March 06, 2016, 10:41:03 PM

Lefty,
I haven't done it, so ... Don't Quote Me ...... but have heard rumbling in the woodwork, a Pietta cylinder can be fit to a Centaur if one
were inclined to run it for CAS.
Personal opinion (very expensive), the OEM Main Spring would have to go (you already knew that). The Centaur's were/are REALLY
nice guns (you new that too). Or, in other words, I'm a tad bit jealous. Nice score!!!

Coffinmaker

Lefty Dude · March 06, 2016, 11:32:24 PM

Yes it is a nice Score Coffinmaker.

I do not shoot my Centaure's in CAS/SASS Matches. They occasionally are let out of the stable for a few Cylinders of Fun. And to show up the Pietta's, Uberti's, and Second Generation Colts. They are the first and true Second Generation 1860 Colt.

I was told this latest Centaure 1860 should be in a Museum, and never shot. Now I have to shoot the piece, just because.

Come on out to Arizona and help me break this Cherry Pistola !

Long Johns Wolf · March 07, 2016, 01:57:32 AM

Lefty Dude and Coffinmaker: one comment regarding these very early - 1959/1960 production Centaures - no matter the model consider them as display pistols not shooters.
Due to some error in the translation at the Belgium factory of Willima B. Edwards's production specs from English to French low grade steel was used for the arbors of these early ones.
Hence they may stretch with regular loads.
Once this was noted ca. towards the end of 1960 the steel for the arbors was changed to high grade stuff.
Which made the Centaures the kings in the ring of shooting irons in the 1860/1960 class C&B pistols and which they still are today if properly maintained.
Long Johns Wolf

Lefty Dude · March 07, 2016, 05:13:17 PM

Thanks for the warning. I shoot only low pressure loads in the centaure's. I use 18 gr. of APP in both the Revolvers. I would never stoke 30 gr's in one.

Story · March 20, 2016, 02:43:24 PM

QuoteDue to some error in the translation at the Belgium factory of Willima B. Edwards's production specs from English to French low grade steel was used for the arbors of these early ones.
Hence they may stretch with regular loads.
Once this was noted ca. towards the end of 1960 the steel for the arbors was changed to high grade stuff.

Purism aside, has anyone tried fitting an arbor from another manufacturer to these early revolvers?

Lefty Dude · March 20, 2016, 06:50:20 PM

CM states that the Pietta will work with some Fitting.

I had Hoof Hearted fit a cartridge conversion cylinder to my other Belgium Centaure. I believe he used a Kirst cylinder. My conversion Cylinder is 45 S&W. I shoot only BP very mild loads thru the piece.

HH, can do marvelous work to a C & B revolver.

Did you ever get the nipples out of your Cylinder, Story ?

Lefty Dude · March 20, 2016, 07:05:50 PM

I have decided not to shoot this piece. It will stay un-fired.

The piece is going to Tucson tomorrow. I will but it in a Gun Shop there, and it will be placed on Consignment to be Sold.

If it stays to long in my Gun Safe, I will be tempted to fire the piece.

It should be in a nice collection of some collector who only looks at fine Fire Arms.

I totally disassembled the piece, cleaned all parts in my ultra-sonic tank and then did some minor fitting. Then re- assembled, lubed and oiled inside and out with Ballistol & Frog Lube.

The piece is ready for another 50 years, as a collector.

Lefty Dude · March 20, 2016, 08:02:03 PM

Here is the Belgium 1860 Army !

Story · March 21, 2016, 05:23:48 AM

Quote from: Lefty Dude on March 20, 2016, 06:50:20 PM

Did you ever get the nipples out of your Cylinder, Story ?

Nope, but thanks for reminding me why I boxed that piece up before getting swept up with the rest of life.

It too has a wiggly arbor (not surprising), now that I think about it. Last I remember I was self-educating on fixes for that.

LonesomePigeon · March 21, 2016, 11:54:23 AM

Lefty, did you ever try switching the early and later model Centaure cylinders to see if they are interchangeable?

Lefty Dude · March 22, 2016, 11:43:16 AM

When I had the piece totally apart, I used the bolt as a gage on the cylinder lock notches. The bolt would clear and was proper for the cylinder in the #302 piece. However for the other cylinder I was hoping to use for test firing, the bolt was to wide and would need fitting for proper usage. This was not to be, as I did not want to fit a bolt to a cylinder not applicable to the unfired piece. As original Colt's, Centaure's parts are stamped with the S/N on all major parts. This includes the Cylinder, Hammer, Barrel, Frame, and such. All parts on the piece have matching numbers.

As I have Pietta Parts, I almost fitted a Pietta bolt to the piece. I compared a Pietta with the Centaure bolt and it was very close in every way. However, I decided to not spend the time, and continued the clean up and minor adjustments of the piece.

The piece is in Tucson, and will be sold.

The Gun Shop in Tucson, Arizona is:
Thunderstick Trading Co.