Question on Accuracy of Heeled Bullets

Jimeast · February 20, 2016, 09:33:51 AM

I am curious about the accuracy obtainable in a heeled bullet for the colt 1851 Navy or 1860 Army. Ive read there are molds better than others and using a heeled bullet vs hollow base helps, etc..., but assuming proper bullets, and loading techniques are used, can a heeled bullet provide similar accuracy to a standard 38 and 45 round in a well prepared revolver?

I am a novice in black powder and conversions and trying learn more about the historically accurate conversions. Since I plan on casting and re-loading, if a heeled bullet makes sense in my final decision, I have no qualms regarding putting in the extra effort to re-load a heeled bullet. If accuracy is always going to suffer if compared to a non-heeled bullet, I will probably opt for non-heeled.

The Pathfinder · February 20, 2016, 09:53:56 AM

First, welcome to the fire. Best people to talk to are Hoof Hearted and Bottom Dealin' Mike. I've also been shooting heeled bullets since the early nineties but have mostly switched over to inside lube as I only have one conversion that uses the old style bullet. Accuracy has always been good with my 1860 conversion done by John Gren, that said I had to try a couple of different molds to find a bullet I could get in the cylinder without shaving the nose off. Finally settled on an old NEI mold, not sure if it's even available anymore. I know the old Rapine mold isn't. Hoof has and sells everything you'll need to do it, so he would be the best source of info for you. What I can tell you is it will take a lot of determination to get it just right, so make sure it's something you really want to do. But the joy of finally getting it done, and with the old style cartridge, is something very few of us will ever accomplish.

Blair · February 20, 2016, 01:12:51 PM

My understanding of the reasoning behind to two diameters of the heel base bullet is to fit the two bore diameters of the rifling in that particular firearm.
(Max bore = nose diameter of the bullet = grove depth. Min bore = the diameter of the heel base bullet = top of the lands.) This would give the best fit of the bullet to a given firearms caliber.
The heel end of the bullet will fit into the mouth of the cartridge without making the chambers too large but still fit the min bore diameter.
My best,
Blair

Jimeast · February 21, 2016, 02:03:43 PM

I have an Uberti 1851 Navy that I would like to convert at some time as well as an 1860 Army. The 1851 Navy is where I am considering a heeled bullet. I've read Hoof Hearted information on his site and various posts on heeled bullets and plan on getting the conversion cylinder from him.

Blair · February 21, 2016, 03:44:51 PM

By all means do so!!! In either .38 or .44 cal.
Just remember the cap & ball bore diameters are larger than their modern counter parts.
This is where the heel based bullets come into there own.
Inside lubed bullets, like .38 Special or .44 Special both use smaller bore diameters, based on modern ammo.
My best,
Blair

Jimeast · February 21, 2016, 07:31:50 PM

When I spoke with Hoof Hearted several weeks back, he mentioned the 41 LC option in the 51 Navy. We talked about several technical issues and conversion options, so, it was a lot to take in and fully understand. After looking around at the post regarding using a 41 LC for the 51 Navy, it looks like;

1) There is 41 LC brass available
2) A conversion cylinder for the '51 or '61 can be reamed to take the 41 brass
3) The bullet would not be a heeled bullet like the original 41 LC, but would be molded to fit the brass cartridge like a 45 Colt or similar non-heeled cartridge.

Maybe someone can let me know if I am correct on the three points mentioned above.

FriscoCounty · February 22, 2016, 01:40:21 PM

I have been looking into going from 38LC heeled to 41LC, too. You are correct - you can get 41LC brass, Hoof Hearted will bore out a 38LC conversion cylinder to accept 41LC, and you use non-heeled bullets. This last is the big reason to do this.

Hoof Hearted makes it look easy in his tutorial and the special shell holder and sizing die pin to go with the mold do make it easier, but it is still more work.

There is one more step required and that is changing the forcing cone for the larger bullet.

Fox Creek Kid · February 22, 2016, 01:54:08 PM

All things else equal there is no difference. The most important things for revolver accuracy are that the bullet∕chamber∕groove diam. are in sync and also that you have a smooth concentric forcing cone, good barrel crown & also the correct twist rate for the projectile used.

1860Henry · February 22, 2016, 04:54:54 PM

I can't speak as to the accuracy of heeled bullets in Col. Colt's offerings, but they shoot very well in my Howell cylinder that I use in my 1863 New Model Remington Navy (Uberti). I am loading the 125 grain heeled bullet (with Old West Mould) in a .38 SPL case with 3f black powder. The revolver shoots very accurately. In the future, I would like to convert my 1851 London Navy (also a Uberti) and use the same load.

Chris

Jimeast · February 22, 2016, 05:51:28 PM

Thanks for the feedback. Seems like when I convert the 1851 I have, I should opt for the most direct path. With the cylinder already set for 38, and a bullet mold that has good references for accuracy, I will probably go this route. What powder load do you use? Do you just fill the cartridge, or have you worked up a favorite load?

Quote from: 1860Henry on February 22, 2016, 04:54:54 PM
I can't speak as to the accuracy of heeled bullets in Col. Colt's offerings, but they shoot very well in my Howell cylinder that I use in my 1863 New Model Remington Navy (Uberti). I am loading the 125 grain heeled bullet (with Old West Mould) in a .38 SPL case with 3f black powder. The revolver shoots very accurately. In the future, I would like to convert my 1851 London Navy (also a Uberti) and use the same load.

Chris

1860Henry · February 22, 2016, 07:13:28 PM

With black powder, I fill the case so that I can get compression when seating the bullet. Then, I crimp using the Old West Moulds collet crimp die.

Chris

will52100 · February 27, 2016, 02:41:19 AM

Inside lubed vs. hollow base vs. heel base. Inside lubed wins by a narrow margin, at least on my Uberti 51 navies. At 20-25 yards the Heel base is as accurate as the inside lubed, past that heel based groups start opening up. In short Heel base is good for pistols, not so much for long range. Hollow base accuracy was pretty good as well, but a PITA to cast and load. Experience with 38 LC inside lubed was with a R&D converted revolver with a barrel lined to .357, and a Uberti conversion replica, not fired through a .375 bore of a percussion barrel.

I had a couple thousand rounds of 38 LC brass and liked the idea of historical ammo, other wise I might have gone for the 41 conversion. Wonder why Colt didn't do that back in the day? Anyway, I've got several Kirst Konverters and have no desire to add yet another caliber to load for, and the Heel base is odd enough to keep me interested.

Anyway, I detest casting hollow base bullets, high rate of reject bullets, had to cast from pure lead to get decent accuracy, and was a single cavity mould. Have also had times where a bullet would back out under recoil and tie up the cylinder.

I use a 3 cavity heel base mould(wish it was a six cavity), cast from 20-1 alloy and very few rejects. Also I don't worry about lubing until after crimping, and most times don't lube until I'm at the range and then just dip the exposed bullet into crisco. Other wise I melt lube and dip the lead and I'm good to go. What I like about the heel base is that I load like normal on my Loadmaster, then use a single stage to do the crimp. If the collet crimper would work with my progressive I'd be in heaven, but it's still not the pain hollow base rounds were even with an extra step.

At pistol range and with the sights on a 51 navy I doubt you can tell much difference accuracy wise unless shooting from a rest.

All loads are with 3F Swiss powder for a little extra umf. I have started using Goex Olde Ensford though and so far like it.

will52100 · February 27, 2016, 02:44:52 AM

Should also add that I don't bother sizing the heel base, works just fine and good accuracy. I have a star sizer so it wouldn't work to size the loaded round, and since it chambers there no point in doing it before loading. The old "dip it in lube" works well.

One disadvantage of heel base ammo is of course the exposed lube, not real good for carrying loose rounds in your pocket.

Hoof Hearted · March 01, 2016, 09:42:48 PM

What they said..............

Coffinmaker · March 02, 2016, 11:49:48 AM

I'm picky. Real Picky

I play CAS and demand accuracy. That equals "minute of Pie Plate" at 15 yards. When shooting Suppositories
thru a converted .36, I've found commercial (Speer) hollow base wadcutters work just fine. Big ol steel plates are TOAST!!

Coffinmaker

Coffinmaker · March 02, 2016, 11:57:01 AM

Aw Heck. I just re-read the OP. Included in the question was .45 as well in a well prepared revolver. Most all of my CAS guns are set
up as Snubbies. Barrels 3 to 3 1/2 inches long. .44 Percussion guns have a nominal 451 bore. That makes em .45s. Unless you are
trying to shoot some form of "old" 44 cases, Heel Base bullets are a total waste of time and effort (casting).

.44 Percussion guns, when converted, will shot any regular .45 Bullet all day (skip jacketed) with fine accuracy.

Back to the .36s. I'm lazy and the medics won't let me cast any more. Commercial (speer again) Hollow Base wadcutters will serve just
fine.

Coffinmaker

Jimeast · March 03, 2016, 02:26:22 PM

Thanks for all the advice. I think I am going to take the cowards way out for a few months; Get some re-loading skills worked out with a new Ruger New Vaquero .45 Colt I am acquiring, then convert my Uberti 1860 Army to a .45. After tackling these and making sure I have a reasonable handle on casting and re-loading, I'll try a .38 heeled bullet in an 1851 Navy.

will52100 · March 03, 2016, 02:56:24 PM

The easiest and cheapest, if not exactly historically correct, is to get one from Uberti already converted. I've got a 51 navy from them chambered in 38 special and it's got the proper chamber throat and .357 barrel for inside lubed bullets.

Jimeast · March 03, 2016, 04:00:56 PM

I live in MA. As far as I can tell, the states attorney general is protecting us from the opportunity to buy Colt, Uberti and many other unsafe handguns

Ruger is one of the few manufacturers that goes through the testing of almost everything they make to get approved for sale in MA. I don't think there are any other traditional SA six-shooters you can buy in MA

Quote from: will52100 on March 03, 2016, 02:56:24 PM
The easiest and cheapest, if not exactly historically correct, is to get one from Uberti already converted. I've got a 51 navy from them chambered in 38 special and it's got the proper chamber throat and .357 barrel for inside lubed bullets.

will52100 · March 03, 2016, 05:50:17 PM

Well that sucks! I'm not a big fan of the 1860 army conversion, since it's only a 5 shot and you have to load it for length if I'm not mistaken. Now if I could get my hands on a Richard's 1st model conversion in 44 colt heel base, that'd be a different story.

Probably the best design for conversion is the Remington, with either a Kirst or R&D cylinder. The 51 navy works extremely well also with heel base bullets.