.45 Colt 1/2 charge

[w44wcf]

After reading Hargrave's post about lighter recoiling .45 Colt loads, I thought it might be interesting to cut the original powder charge in half (40 grs to 20 grs.) and seat a 200 gr. down on top of the powder charge, compressing the powder.  

That is a cartridge version of a b.p. load in early revolvers.  Interestingly, it closely replicates D.D.'s recommendation of 1.3cc of b.p. in Cowboy 45 Special brass with the J/P 45 200 grain Big Lube®LLC bullet except it is in standard .45 Colt brass.



I ventured out yesterday to see how it would perform in a 7 1/2" barrel.

The powder was KIK FFFG, 20 grs by weight.  Compression was .15".  

Surprisingly, the average velocity was 778 f.p.s. (!) That's moving right along!   20 grs by weight of Olde Enysford FFG or Swiss FFG would give similar ballistics.  20 grs. by weight of FFFG of either of those powders would likely push the 200 gr. bullet to 800+ f.p.s.

Accuracy was very good as well.  I left the mouth of the cartridges as they were after they were expanded and they still easily slipped into the chambers. As a result, there was very little blow back on the cases which were not annealed nor neck sized.

Fun, Fun, Fun!

w44wcf

[Dick Dastardly]

YES!  Much fun, save powder, have light recoil and hit what you're aiming at.  This could be a good work around if the C45Spl brass isn't available.

Thanks for posting w44wcf!

DD-MDA

[PJ Hardtack]

How do you avoid bullet jump or is there none due to the lack of recoil?

I wouldn't mind shooting against a guy with my 30+ gr 44-40's in SASS BP Cartridge who was shooting such a load if he disqualified himself from score.

[Blair]

I maybe mistaken, but the slight bottle neck case of the .44WCF/44-40 would not allow for this kind of deep seating.
I have done this in the straight case .38 Special in a .38 Colt  sleeved in .357 dia. bore
My best,
Blair

[Coffinmaker]

Hey!!!  Almost a real honest to goodness "Gallery Load."  I think this would be a great practice load.  Unfortunately, not useable in a
CAS match.  For CAS, the lead must peek above the case mouth.

Some while back, just for grins and giggles, I did the same thing with APP and a Round Ball.  I don't have a Chrono anymore, so I son't know how fast it was going, but recoil was .............. what recoil?

Strange as it may seem, bullet jump doesn't seem to matter.  I was getting the same group size at 20 paces as I normally get with a
160Gr RNFP or with my Cap Guns.  About an inch and a half - 2 inches.  Really fun. 

I've never really thought about running it up the flag pole as it can't be used in CAS.  There was also a commercial loading available for
a while that was the same thing.  After SASS POO POO'd it, it disappeared.

Coffinmaker

[PJ Hardtack]

I was referring to the bullets 'creeping' forward in the cases during firing as they are not crimped.

I can see this as a fun gallery load, but considering that the brass has to be cleaned as if it was a full house load, I don't see the advantage over a smokeless mouse fart load.

Much ado with little return.

[Dick Dastardly]

PJ, smokeless?  Not on this wire.  We're talkin' bp here.   

DD-MDA

[Blair]

Flush mounted bullet with the cylinder face?
How is it that C&P revolvers are allowed in competition? They are all flush or slightly below flush with the cylinder face.
Don't forget that S&W developed the Target Models in the New Model ##'s, .32-44 and .38-44's in the mid 1880's. Both of these had flush mounted bullets in a case trimmed to match the full length of the cylinder chamber.
This is all kind of crazy and mixed up.
Perhaps some re-thinking or re-wording of the rules are in order?
My best,
Blair

[Coffinmaker]

There are no rules for Bullet or Ball seating for percussion guns.  None.  Seat the ball as far up or down as you can.  With a cylinder loading stand and a really long rammer, you can seat the ball clear down on the nipple if you think it'll come out

The rules for cartridge guns have been unchanged since time immortal.  Forever like.  You'll never see any of those rules changed.  the only really big rule is ..... TA DA ..... the bullet must be above the case mouth.  Does not say how far above.  Just .. above.  It is what it is.

[PJ Hardtack]

I realize that. I'm just questioning the validity of a BP equivalent smokeless mouse fart load.

I know I've shot against shooters in both percussion and BP cartridge events whose cases were stoked with some sort of filler over a low charge of BP. Go large or go home.

PJ, smokeless?  Not on this wire.  We're talkin' bp here.   

DD-MDA

[Coffinmaker]

Bullet Creep??

PJ, I honestly don't know.  It never entered my mind to fire one or three and then dump the rest to look and see.  Come spring, I may
have to do that.  Just because I'm now curious.  When I load 45s that way, I use full length resized cases with a slight bell for seating the bullet, then just enough crimp to eliminate the bell and make it parallel again.

I really don't think there is enough recoil to cause creep, but I really don't know.  I shoot APP in both Cap Guns and Suppositories when
I stray from the Cap Guns, but I dislike recoil so I normally shoot about a 20Gr load in either Cap Gun or Suppositories.  I seldom use
full 45 Colt cases anymore as I have ample C45S cases.  Good question and now I are curious.

Coffinmaker

[w44wcf]

I realize that. I'm just questioning the validity of a BP equivalent smokeless mouse fart load.

I know I've shot against shooters in both percussion and BP cartridge events whose cases were stoked with some sort of filler over a low charge of BP. Go large or go home

Hmmm...A 200 gr bullet traveling at almost 800 f.p.s. is definitely beyond a mouse fart load..............

w44wcf 

[w44wcf]

Regarding bullet creep...... I was using FLS .45 Colt Starline brass and .454" diameter bullets of 12 BHN hardness. That combination produced no bullet creep.  Softer bullets, smaller in diameter could be an issue.

One could resize the case down to the bullet after it is seated if they felt the need to.

w44wcf   

[dusty texian]

w44wcf Prety Slick!!! Will give this a try in my .45 and .44 Colts , Would be a fine Bunny Popper!  ,,,,,,DT

[JohnsonBarr]

Why not fill the void between powder charge and bullet base with a filler. Using the bullet's cast crimp groove will always give better shot to shot accurate consistency. My personal BP filler favorite is Quaker Quick Grits. The white smoke plume is wonderful and of course the smell of burning grits in the morning is, well, tasty. Salt and butter to taste.

[dusty texian]

Can smell the rabbit frying now!!!!,,,,,,DT

[w44wcf]

Why not fill the void between powder charge and bullet base with a filler. Using the bullet's cast crimp groove will always give better shot to shot accurate consistency. My personal BP filler favorite is Quaker Quick Grits. The white smoke plume is wonderful and of course the smell of burning grits in the morning is, well, tasty. Salt and butter to taste.

I have used fillers in the past but the goal here was to eliminate fillers and  seat the bullet directly down on the charge, compressing it. Actually, the shot to shot variation was fairly consistent probably because there was more bullet contact inside of the case...at least for the 5 rounds that I fired.

w44wcf 

[Bunk Stagnerg]

On reduced loads here is my experience which, by the way, is something you get right after you needed it, is to start heavy and work back.
I tried making some very light loads with a heathen powder but I expect the same problem would occur with real Gun Powder. My idea was a very light charge and a .452 round ball with the ball crimped at its circumference.

My plan was to have something I would call "damp firing" to be somewhere between dry fire and live fire. That way it would not only allow the practice of gun manipulation but also check accuracy and be economical of powder and lead.

The test round was nice and light but the primer set back because there was not enough breech pressure to re seat it which jammed the gun up tight. The problem was solved (perhaps) with a very firm roll crimp but I abandoned the project and for reliability went to a slightly heavier charge and bullet.

That is my experience with heathen powder and since I believe real Gun Powder would develop somewhat less pressure it appears there is a bottom line to how light a round you can get with cartridge guns.

Comments appreciated
Bunk

[Noz]

Bunk, you are correct. there is a lower limit. The only people you see shooting the ultra light loads in CAS anymore are newcomers. The more seasoned shooters have realized that there must be some feedback from the gun to the shooter for speed to be developed. An additional disadvantage is the fact that a lightly loaded shot's impact may not be audible to the spotters and may not have enough energy to move the target resulting in an excessive number of "miss" calls..
We used to see a lot of the poof....................tink loads.
Now even the fastest are shooting bang-clang loads.

[Dick Dastardly]

A compressed charge of FFFg bp under a Snakebite bullet is considered a very acceptable black powder load in a 38 Special case.  This being the case and the charge being 1.3cc or 20 grains in that 38 special brass, I'd submit that that same amount of bp in a 45 case under a 200 grain bullet ain't no mouse phart load.  The exact length of the brass is non sequester, the amount of boom, smoke and impact are what count.  Same goes for 44 cal loads.

Smoke on!

DD-MDA