Lube Observations by a Newbie

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

  Being new to BP and other non-smokeless powders, I didn't have any specific lube for these propellants, but shoot I must...

 The subject is my recently acquired 1866 24" Sporting Rifle in 44-40.

First the bullet:



This is in my limited experience a very thoughtfully designed bullet. Not only does it have an ample lube groove, but it is designed in such a way that the correct o.a.l. is maintained when the bullet is crimped in place via the crimp groove. And that's to say nothing regarding the quality of the NOE moulds themselves. Outstanding.

The powders: GOEX 2f out of the old metal cans, Pyrodex P, and Swiss 3f.

The lubes: "TAC 1" I bought on eBay a couple of years ago. The lube is fairly soft at mild temperatures, so I thought it might work.
                "Emmert's" made in my shop from a recipe found on the Cast Boolit site. Supposedly it's very similar to SPG. As you'll see, I only tried it with one load because in order to use it I had to pan lube which is a headache.

 First try was the GOEX 2f. This powder is FILTHY burning.  I first tried the TAC 1 lube. The first three shots at 100 yds. would go into a nice, tight cluster of 2" - 3" then begin scattering like quail. After 10 shots the last 6" or so of the bore were fouled so bad that the rifling couldn't even bee seen. Oddly, the remainder of the bore looked pretty good.
 Next I tried the Emmert's formula. It's was slightly better actually keeping the first five shots in a decent group. But after that, they began to scatter pretty wildly. The bore was fouled "only" about the last 4" with the remainder still fairly shiny.

 Next up Pyrodex P and TAC 1. I loaded 20 rounds and hied off to the bench expecting the bore to foul out before I'd fired all 20 rounds. Didn't happen. After 20 rounds had been expended the bore looked quite nice with only a haze it's length. Two tight, dry patches brought the bore back to chrome-like shininess. I then cleaned completely with Ballistol and water.

 Last was the Swiss 3f and TAC 1. Surely, I thought, this generic commercial lube won't hold up to "real" BP. Again 20 rounds, same results as with Pyrodex; just a sort of dingy haze the length of the bore. And as with Pyrodex, a couple of tight dry patches brought the bore back to brilliant shiny, and again I proceeded with a complete cleaning with Ballistol.

 I didn't shoot and measure groups, but the last 15 rounds of the last two tests were fired at my 200 yd. gong. Even with a stiff quartering wind and me having to hold a little negative Kentucky elevation, the loads shot some pretty decent groups.

 So is it possible that this lube will work with BP and Pyrodex or is 20 rounds not enough of a test?

CHT

 

[Cliff Fendley]

I think your problem with the Goex might be the lube, bullet combo or something. As you have found it is much dirtier than other powders but in my experience it didn't foul the barrel quite that bad or that fast. I would be curious if SPG gave you any better results although you have figured out the best route and that is use a better quality powder. I haven't bought any regular Goex for a long time now.

If he carries them KIK or Old Eynsford are some other powders to try that are in a more moderate price range.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I have only shot the NOE .44 bullet in revolvers, but it has a huge lube groove so you should not be fouling out even with GOEX. I have never used Emmert's lube, but I have read nothing bad about it. I make my own lube from the ancient recipe of 1 lb. mutton tallow, 1 lb. canning paraffin & one half lb. beeswax. It's never let me down.

In the past I have shot a boatload of MAV .44 'Big Lube' bullets through a 24" Henry and never fouled out and the NOE has a very similar lube capacity.

Have you slugged your bore? What's your alloy and to what diam. are you sizing your bullet to? I size all my .44 bullets to 0.430" as that works best in all my guns.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

I have only shot the NOE .44 bullet in revolvers, but it has a huge lube groove so you should not be fouling out even with GOEX. I have never used Emmert's lube, but I have read nothing bad about it. I make my own lube from the ancient recipe of 1 lb. mutton tallow, 1 lb. canning paraffin & one half lb. beeswax. It's never let me down.

In the past I have shot a boatload of MAV .44 'Big Lube' bullets through a 24" Henry and never fouled out and the NOE has a very similar lube capacity.

Have you slugged your bore? What's your alloy and to what diam. are you sizing your bullet to? I size all my .44 bullets to 0.430" as that works best in all my guns.

 Bore slugged at .4285" and my bullets are 50/50 WW/Pb sized .430".

 I forgot to mention, the TAC 1 lube, after 20 rounds, left a nice lube star at the end of the muzzle and a ring of black gooey mud that I presume is powder fouling. Would this be an indication that the lube was "carrying" so to speak, the fouling the length of the barrel?

 

[Noz]

If your rifle is showing fouling at the muzzle end it indicates that your lube is not carrying the length of the barrel.
The MavDutchman with a good lube will carry Skirmish Fg in an Uberti 44-40. (You ain't seen dirty til you try Skirmish)
Using SPG on 38 special(38Slim bullets)  and 44-40(using MAV Dutchman bullets) rifles with KIK FFFg powder, 1 pull of the Moosemilk Boresnake followed by a couple of drying patches takes care of a days worth of cowboy shooting.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

If your rifle is showing fouling at the muzzle end it indicates that your lube is not carrying the length of the barrel.
The MavDutchman with a good lube will carry Skirmish Fg in an Uberti 44-40. (You ain't seen dirty til you try Skirmish)
Using SPG on 38 special(38Slim bullets)  and 44-40(using MAV Dutchman bullets) rifles with KIK FFFg powder, 1 pull of the Moosemilk Boresnake followed by a couple of drying patches takes care of a days worth of cowboy shooting.

  First, I stated the wrong Swiss powder used, I used 3f NOT 2f.

  Second, I probably didn't explain it clearly. The black gooey mud is present ONLY on the face of the muzzle, with the entire length of the bore only having a little brown haze to it, much like a chrome vehicle bumper that needs to be wiped off.

   CHT

[Cliff Fendley]

2f or 3f doesn't matter they both work fine in the 44wcf. 3f gives me more velocity (about 60fps) so I have been loading anything I plan to shoot longer ranges with the 3f. I would rather use 2f for regular CAS but I've also used 2f in over 200 yards cowboy pistol caliber long range matches with great results.

[Dick Dastardly]

Here's the working drawing for the Mav Dutchman Big Lube®LLC bullet.  The image shown on this thread is an interesting copy.  This is the bullet I shoot from my Browning 92 44 Magnum rifle.  I have NEVER had fouling problems with it or my Ruger Vaquero 44 Magnum guns.  The lube I use, PL-II, is not complicated and sales are brisk.  The formula is freely given with each sale.  My shooting pardners load Mav Dutchman Big Lube®LLC bullets exclusively in their 44-40 caliber SASS guns.  Frequently we shoot entire annual matches without cleaning till after the match, sometimes not for a couple of weeks.  No fouling problems.

I used to shoot a Chinese black powder labeled LIDU.  This is the dirtiest stuff of any I've ever used.  No fouling problems.  That said, I doubt that powder is the culprit here.

OAT, relative humidity and other factors seem not to be a problem here.  Were it me, I'd look to the lube.

Best luck,

DD-MDA

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

 I'm familiar with the Big Lube line of.bullets.

A couple or so months ago I acquired a couple of original Winchester '73"s and two old Colt Bisleys all in 38-40. In my impatience to shoot before I got a bullet mould for them, I ordered some of.your 38-40 bullets with the pretty green lube. I loaded some of the aforementioned, filthy burning GOEX 2f under your bullets. One of the Colts has a bore that is mostly shiny and I fired the loads through  it. After two cylinders loaded with 5 rounds each it took some effort to cock the revolver. After 15 rounds, it took quite a bit of effort and the cylinder needed assistance in rotating. The bore was filthy black and any semblance of accuracy was gone. That's another reason I believe the powder is the fouling culprit.
  Also forgot to mention that when chronographing the GOEX I noticed a few sparks spraying out.with the smoke. Not so with the Swiss or Pyrodex. I intend to get a can of the GOEX 3f from my newfound source. I noticed he has it in the new plastic containers. Some state the newer production is of better quality.

  CHT

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy again,

What is the barrel to cylinder gap on your pistols?  Too much is not good and too little is worse.  The magic spot seems to be between .005" to .008".  I have a mystery gun that is too tight and I'm having the barrel/cylinder gap widened.

DD-MDA

[Cliff Fendley]

I always liked the fire and sparks. That's one of the great things about shooting black powder.

[john boy]

(You ain't seen dirty til you try Skirmish)

Noz - my shotgun powder - all 83 grs - smoke & fire ... but it cleans with Dawn & hot tap water 
Skirmish is repackaged Goex Firecracker Powder in Clear Shot cans they knew no other way to get rid of

[Noz]

I bought the Skirmish Fg as a shotgun powder and only used it in cap and ball and rifle as experiments. It cleaned up as easily as any black powder but Oh there was a LOT to clean up.
It's best use was as heavy shotgun loads for a night shoot.  Everyone accused me of using the burning granules of powder to knock the targets down. It was still burning and able to bounce off of the steel targets at SASS ranges. Spectacular but really hard on the night vision.
As I grow in experience with my use of SPG, I become more positive that the maker knows what he is doing. It is really performing well at SASS ranges for me. Better than any of the concoctions I have come up with before.

[will52100]

I don't have a 44-40, but I use a big lube bullet in my 45 colt 1860 Henry.  I used to use a home made lube of mutton tallow, bee's wax and paraffin.  With this lube I could shoot 200+ rounds without fouling the bore out.  I do get a little blow back from the thicker brass and generous chamber, enough that after a while I start getting a little stiff on the brass cartridge lifter.  And clean up was a wet with moose milk bore snake, a couple tight patches with moose milk and a couple dry patches, followed by one with oil and back in the safe.  Accuracy stays up the whole time.  I've since been using DD's pearl lube 2, jury's still out on wether it's as accurate as my home brew, but it's already in sticks for my sizer and I don't have to monkey with casting sticks.

My normal powder is Graf's 3F, though I load a few 3F Swiss up for a little more ump now and then.  I detest Goex, it is the dirtiest, foulingest crap I've ever run through any firearm.  There Olde Ensford isn't bad though, but don't know if they'll keep the quality up, or discontinue it in the future.