Info - .45 colt - Light Recoil - Black Powder

[Fox Creek Kid]

Jake C,
Basically it's just that simple.  Running 44-40 cases thru a 45 Colt resizing die and using a 45 Colt case mouth belling die.  the reason it works is the materially thinner brass at the case mouth of 44-40 brass.  In the past, it has given the best results when starting with new
Starline brass.

John Boy,
Horsefeathers.  You have had demonstrated good luck in your rifle.  Uberti chamber dimensions are at best "all over the place" and some
other manufacturers are also less than optimal.  Simply switching to a 454 bullet and a Hard Crimp does nothing to solve the Blow-By problem in at least 75% of 45 Colt CAS rifles.

Coffinmaker

It's just God's subtle message to the shooter that they really need to get a 44-40. It's that simple.   

[Jake C]

It's just God's subtle message to the shooter that they really need to get a 44-40. It's that simple.   

Believe me, I fully intend to down the road. '73 sporting rifle in .44-40 is high on my list, I just want to get a '66 Yellowboy first and try to duplicate the .44 rimfire load with .45 Schofield rounds, if I can.

[Good Troy]

Believe me, I fully intend to down the road. '73 sporting rifle in .44-40 is high on my list, I just want to get a '66 Yellowboy first and try to duplicate the .44 rimfire load with .45 Schofield rounds, if I can.

Have you considered duplicating the load with a 44 Russian? A buddy of mine was considering this for his 66 in 44-40 for the same purpuse.  I think it requires a sleeve in the chamber, or $omething along those line$. 

[Cliff Fendley]

It's just God's subtle message to the shooter that they really need to get a 44-40. It's that simple.   

hear hear

[Fox Creek Kid]

Believe me, I fully intend to down the road. '73 sporting rifle in .44-40 is high on my list, I just want to get a '66 Yellowboy first and try to duplicate the .44 rimfire load with .45 Schofield rounds, if I can.

You can in a 44-40:  28 grs. BP, Circle Fly 0.430" diam. 0.125" thick wad & a 200 gr. bullet with BP lube. Shot that load for damn near 20 yrs.  

http://www.circlefly.com/html/products.html

[john boy]

Coffinmaker - I should have mentioned that I have relative good sealing with the Rossi 45LC rifles. I haven't shot my 1860 and 1866 in so long, really can't remember the blow back conditions.
But with the reloads for my single shot BPC rifles with the bullet finger seated in straight wall brass - yep some blow back.  A worst case - pictures of BP blow back in a 9.5x47R reloads finger seated that were not fire formed in a vintage German Schuetzen rifle ... and yes, the cases were annealed!  Subsequent firing of fire formed the cases looked better but still blow back   
 

[Lucky R. K.]

I do not think it is possible to achieve no blowback while loading for a lighter recoil in the 45 Colt case.  In order to stop blowback the chamber has to be sealed at ignition.  I shoot a 250 grain Big Lube bullet with about 32 grains of 2F black powder (usually Goex) in my Uberti '73 and have no blowback problems.  I have shot as many as three weekly shoots before pulling the side plates for cleaning. 

Obviously, this loading will not give you a lighter recoil but the rifle can be shot all day without any attention other than loading it.

Lucky

[Coffinmaker]

Lucky,
Correctomundo.  the straight wall 45 Colt case is just not conducive to good sealing.  A few Uberti rifles will give an acceptable seal when
heavy bullets and a heavy powder charge are used.  But, unfortunately, not many. 
I recently worked on a 45 Henry by Uberti and the 45 Colt case literally rattled around in the chamber.  Only way to seal that chamber is
to pour it full of epoxy, stuff in the round and let it set up.  Result??  A "one" shooter forever.
I'm not at all concerned with the powder staining on the brass.  No big deal.  Just amounts to "patina."  Toggle Link rifles have an almost straight path from the chamber, thru the action and extension rod, to the shooter.  Usually, not a significant amount blown back all the way to the shooter.  The real problem is the build-up of carbon fouling at the front of the Carrier Block Mortice and all around the front surface of the Carrier Block.  The carrier block will quickly become sticky and "crunchy" and, it the rifle does not have "positive slam down," the carrier block will stick halfway down and stop the rifle dead.  Squirting the crude build-up with Ballistic or other concoctions to keep the
fouling soft between stages will normally keep the rifle running.  It's a nuisance, but if you want to shoot a 45, it is what it is.
The blow-back can be mitigated.  Surprisingly, the thinner case mouth of the C45S helps.  Shooting 44-40 cases expanded to 45 helps a lot.  Annealing the 45 Colt case mouth helps a lot.  No real cure.
The 45 is not the only case that suffers in a Toggle Link Rifle from Uberti.  I have an 1866 in 44 Special that I modified to run 44 Russian.
Works a treat with Heathen stuff (Smokeless).  Absolutely will NOT run BP or subs more than 5 rounds before it sticks and jams.  I am upset with it.  I cut it to Trapper length (16 1/4 inches) so to run 10 round stages, gotta run it with Heathen Propellants.  Icky Foo.

Coffinmaker

[Hargrave]

I found a good video that shows the blow back ...



now, I am going to load up this weekend and see what we get on this.

28Gr. 2F Swiss black
200 GR RNFP
Appropriate wad

I will let you all know how the blow back is.

Jake

[w44wcf]

Howdy,
As the old saying goes...."When there is a will, there is a way."

.45 Colt "Blow By" has been a topic of discussion for as long as I can remember.  For whatever reason (perhaps long running gun fights / ease of insertion into peacemaker chambers in the heat of battle) there is more generous windage (difference between the brass o.d. and the chamber i.d.) in .45 Colt chambers.

Fire formed cases...
In addition, the chambers have a bit of taper making them a bit larger at the back than at the front. In my early .45 Colt days (early 1970's) I shot a Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk and was a bit miffed with the amount  of soot on the outside of the spent brass. Long story short, I decided to try just neck sizing only  , leaving the rest of the case to the as fired dimensions.  

I did that by using my Lyman Carbide die which would allow the decapping pin to extend far enough to remove the primer when the cases were neck sized to a distance of about 1/16" below where the base of the bullet would rest.

Fireforming will reduce the amount of windage in the chamber but not eliminate it entirely since the brass will spring back a bit. It will take a full load of b.p to initially get the best result.





The only disadvantage to that is if one has several 45 Colt firearms the brass might not be interchangeable. Thankfully it is between 3 of the 45 Colts I have (2 revolvers, 1 rifle).
 
Annealed case necks for b.p. shooting...
When I got into black powder shooting, I found that annealing the case necks really helped seal the front portion of the chamber.  
Annealing the fireformed cases pretty much eliminated the blow by on the cases.

Larger Diameter Bullets...
The original .45 Colt was loaded with .456-.457" diameter bullets. By just doing that alone, windage in front of the chamber will be reduced by 50+% as compared to .452" diameter bullets.  When combined with annealed fireformed cases....blowback zilch!
The downside is that you would have to make your own since no one currently offers bullets that large.  Going to .454" would be a step in the right direction.

Have fun!
w44wcf  

[w44wcf]

For lighter recoiling loads in .45 Colt peacemakers, one could just deep seat the bullet.
No wad(s) needed.

200 gr / 26 grs b.p. / .12" compression



w44wcf

[Good Troy]

WCF...that is just too simple! 

[Hargrave]

W44wcf,

I love the idea but needed something for lever guns too :-(

Here is where I am now ..... 200 gr bullet / 30 grains , Swiss 2f, / 3/8" soft felt wad and off we go ... I just need a better wad cutter now to make the wads :-) ... Midway is out of stock

Jake

[Good Troy]

Try Track of the Wolf for wad cutters.  Not sure what they have in inventory, but they do carry them.

[w44wcf]

W44wcf,

I love the idea but needed something for lever guns too :-(

Here is where I am now ..... 200 gr bullet / 30 grains , Swiss 2f, / 3/8" soft felt wad and off we go ... I just need a better wad cutter now to make the wads :-) ... Midway is out of stock

Jake

Jake,
You might want to try:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/171/1/WAD-455-A  Scroll to the bottom of the page.
You could use 2 if need be.

I used 1 under a 250 gr. bullet to recreate the vintage 28 gr. loading below.






w44wcf

[paledun]

I am adding a youngster's (extent of personal CAS experience) comment to the subject of blow-by or blow back for 45 Colt cartridges.  And, possibly a shot at being a youngster as well as I am three weeks from my seventy-seventh birthday.  I started CAS at 71 because I could not wade Idaho's rivers as safely as I should.  A wasted youth looking at cowboy movies told me 45 Colt was the only caliber any respectable cowboy would carry.  And I bought all I needed and started shooting pistols and rifles with smokeless.  Then came BP, blow-by and rifles too fouled to operate.  Full cases, 250 grain bullets and an extra heavy crimp did nothing.  I read that annealing could work and have had great success since using a 32 grains of 2F under a lube cookie and 200 grain RNFP.  I have no blow-by on my 45 cases after firing and can furnish pictures to prove it.  I shoot a Uberti 73 and a Pedersoli Lightening.  Barrel cleaning after each round. A spray of moose-milk in the action and that is all that is required.   My 73 is due and annual cleaning just to keep me in practice.  The Lightening was cleaned in the fall.  I am not suggesting that annealing will always work to eliminate blow-by for everyone.  But it worked wonders for me and I suggest it as a first step to anyone thinking about shooting 45s and Black.  Sagerider aka Paladin for CasC[ty

[Hargrave]

Thanks to all the replies .. I will look into the annealing and am using a single 1/8" wad right now ....

I was thinking of trying a cork wad or something ... Will experiment here soon. I have a good quality wad punch on the way and am eager to see what to do. I already have those fiber wads from circle fly and looking forward the fun !!

Blowback .... Shot a match this weekend and the blowback was not much of an issue ... About half way through the stages ... I sprayed some moose milk on the action and chamber and turned the rifle (uberti 73) barrel down to drain between shoots and had no problem .


Jake

[Coffinmaker]

As you play with different forms of "wads" "fillers" and "what have yous" try to keep in mind, whatever you put into that case becomes
"payload."  the weight and mass of the payload will determine velocity and chamber pressure.
Note that I listed Chamber Pressure last.  In some instances, your "wad" can act as an "obstruction" even if it's down in the case.  Even if
your "wad" of "Filler" burn, initially, they are part of the payload.  Be careful.

Coffinmaker