Barrel throat leading on Smoke Wagon

[Coffinmaker]

I doubt this really helps with the OP, but, ...... thought I'd share anyway .......  Was looking a Ruger (I don't personally like Rugers) for a
good friend of mine (He recently bought it).  Nice Birds Head, .45 with 3 1/2 inch barrel.  The cylinder throats were typical Ruger undersize
and we also wanted the bore diameter.  We lightly oiled the bore and drove a 452 bullet into it from the muzzle.  After initial swaging, the bullet was driven easily down the bore, until we got to the frame, where the bullet stopped dead.  Took some serious hammer moxie to
get the bullet thru that constriction.  The nominal bore was 451.  The constriction resulted in 447.  The ONLY way to fix that much constriction is to COMPLETELY ream the lands and groves out of the bore until past the frame.  Or, cut new threads in the frame and
thread a new barrel.  Oh, and the chamber throats were 448.  We did ream the throats to 4515 cause we are going to have to re-barrel this gun.
His new-2-him 357, same Ruger style, had cylinder throats of 354 and a bore of 357.  Once you get past being built like a tank, and get into the things that make up a good gun, Ruger Sux.

Coffinmaker

[Fox Creek Kid]

...The nominal bore was 451.  The constriction resulted in 447.  The ONLY way to fix that much constriction is to COMPLETELY ream the lands and groves out of the bore until past the frame.  Or, cut new threads in the frame and
thread a new barrel.  Oh, and the chamber throats were 448.  We did ream the throats to 4515 cause we are going to have to re-barrel this gun...

If no one has mounted a new barrel on it since it left the factory Ruger will install one for free. You will have to call, talk to a rep. & get a repair ticket # as well as pay shipping to them. They will examine the gun then to see if it was indeed over torqued by them and if so replace the barrel for free. I had this happen on a used fixed sight GP100 I bought that shot off to one side awful. They mounted a new barrel for free.

P.S.  Those are bad specs!! 

[Coffinmaker]

Fox Creek ........
Yea Buddy.  All the years I worked as a CAS Gunsmith, I constantly ran into Ruger specs just like these.  Really annoyed me.  I can count on one hand the number of Ruger cylinders that DID NOT require re-cutting the throats.  45s and 357s equally bad.  Of all the "other"
guns I worked on, I can count on one hand the number of guns that needed to be reamed.  Oxie Moron, but just the way it has been.
On those occasions when Rugers were sent back, most were returned with ("within specs") and nothing was done.  Not my idea of
great customer service for this specific problem.
On the opposite end of the spectrum is Colt.  Colt throats have traditionally been WAY oversize.  451 or 452 bore with 454 - 456 throats.
No fix for that.

Coffinmaker

PS:  Just piddled with a Uberti Henry, 45 Colt and the cartridges literally RATTLED around in the chamber.  Ugh.

[Fox Creek Kid]

CM, the funny thing is that the Ruger New Model Blackhawk in .44 Spcl. has none of those BS problems!! Go figure!! I sold my two, but the chambers were 0.4315" and a 0.430" groove. PERFECT for 0.431" cast bullets!!

[Coffinmaker]

WOW!!  Two Rugers correctly throated for the bore!!  And you SOLD em??  I think I'd have made a flash announcement and allowed the
adoring public to come and fondle em, at a buck a touch 

I think I have mentioned, I don't like Rugers.  I have had SIX different sets of Rugers.  I have NEVER been able to hit anything with Rugers.  EVER.  Every Ruger modification known to man and some not commonly known.  Nope, Can't shoot em for beans.  I do however, shoot consistently clean matches with my Pietta Snubbie Cap Guns.  Go Figure.

Coffinmaker

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

My standard black powder load is a .454 big lube bullet with pearl lube 2, or my own SPG formula.  Smokeless rounds get a .453 bullet lubed with two coats of alox/JPW/mineral spirits, 45-45-10.  Or my own mix of vaseline/paraffin/STP.  The smokeless as cast are between .453 and .454.  I size and lube with .454 size dies, or with the 45-45-10 mix as cast.  Big lube bullets get sized and lubed at .454.  Alloy for both is 20-1 lead/tin.

Standard black powder load is 38 grains of 3F Graf's, on occasion I use 2F Swiss for a little extra "oomph"

Smokeless load is 5.7 grains of Titegroup.

All bullets are flat base, 250 grainer's, tight crimp.

I get leading just past the forcing cone for about a 1/4" or so then it disappears.  This happens with all loads.  I haven't tried any jacked with this gun.

I was thinking of making about 8-10 abrasive rounds up, load and fire one at a time, cleaning between rounds.  Then 5-6 of medium grit, then fine grit.  Not sure how low on velocity I can go though, I've only got Titegroup, Unique, and black powder for pistol powders.  I do have a mould for a 200 grain big lube bullet, but haven't used it in years.

  Don't the Smokewagons already have an 11° throat?

   As others have said, slug the barrel. I've not yet seen a constriction in a Uberti, but had a significant one in a New Vaquero 45 Colt. I fired nearly 70 lapping bullets and it could still use some more. Conversely, I fire-lapped a Cattleman just to remove some tooling marks, and found the barrel metal significantly softer than that of a Ruger. So if you do fire lap, go slow with fine abrasive.

   My first step would be to try smaller bullets. Gievn that your only getting leading in the first 1/2", I'm wondering if the relatively large bullets you're using are hitting the sharp end of the forcing cone and scraping lead off the bullet. It'd sure be easy to size down another thousandth or two and try.

   Please keep us posted!

    CHT

[Fox Creek Kid]

Shooting smaller hard lead bullets with light smokeless charges would be the worst thing to do. He would then see worse leading. The bullet would then 'tin' all the way down the bore.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

Shooting smaller hard lead bullets with light smokeless charges would be the worst thing to do. He would then see worse leading. The bullet would then 'tin' all the way down the bore.

  If his barrel,s groove diameter is in the .451" - .452" range, then it's not going to hurt a thing o at least try bullets in that diameter. He already knows the .453/.454 are causing problems. Assuming his cylinder throats are correct, he could easily see an improvement.

   Think about this: what's the difference in firing a proper size cast bullet through a .002" constriction ahead of the forcing cone and firing a bullet .002" over groove diameter through a barrel without a constriction? None that I can see.

CHT

[Blair]

A question for the OP... Have you thought to check to see if the champers of the cylinder are aligned with the barrel when the gun is in battery?
My best,
Blair

[Cypress Sam]

This is late in the game so the OP may not even see this suggestion or may have already fixed the problem.

Check the cylinder throat sizes.  It they are undersized, the bullet gets swaged down smaller than the bore.  When this happens, hot gases bypass the bullet for a short time until the bullet expands to seal the bore.  The hot gas melts the lead around the base where the bypass occurs and deposits it in the barrel.  This can happen from using under sized billers also but the OP said that he had already checked that.

The problem could be one or all of the things already mentioned, but this is just one more thing, and it's pretty easy to check.  A little harder to fix though! 

[mehavey]

Still waiting to hear what hardness/alloy mix the bullets were.
Dimes-to-donuts it's a TooHard problem.