Some Eastern Mountain/Plains rifles...

[ChuckBurrows]

Wurfflein of Philadelphia was one such maker........

[Blair]

Chuck,

Great images!

There are probably 4, maybe 5 Eastern made "Planes" type Rifles for ever Hawken/Gemmer made Rifles
And this is only scratching the surface.
My best,
Blair

[dusty texian]

Thanks for the look at those beauties!!!!,,,,,DT

[ChuckBurrows]

You're welcome. Also note on both the top image rifle and on the Nosworthy rifle in the Buffalo Hunter's Outfit thread both have the muzzle turned, indicating they may both have been rifle to accommodate some form of conical , most probably a Picket style.

Interestingly enough the Hawken Shop must have also made such rifles or at least their rifling at 1/48" worked well for stabilizing those 1" long bullets (again most likely a patched or un-patched Picket type.)
Louis Simonds, an acquaintance of Lewis Garrad, spoke of a Cincinnatian at the Taos Insurrection of 1847 as: "Out in the pinyon, that morning, with big Saint Loui' gun - a Jake Hawkins gun, she was eh? He had bullets an inch long, with a sharp tip be doggoned ef they wasn't some, eh? - We had to leave him, but I guess he'll come in safe.

[ChuckBurrows]

A T. J.  Albright, St. Louis major purveyor of such goods order to J. Henry sent in November of 1844, called for:
Rifles with blued iron mounting without [patch] box & some with box good [?] lock double & single trigger. . . . cal 40 to 100 [to the pound]. whole & half stock - barrels 3 feet to 3 f. 6 some pretty heavy brown barrels & silver sights - [Also] Rifled Barrels 3 f to 3 f 10. calibres 40 to 80 & some 100

Another Albright order, drawn up in December of 1846, requested:
10 1/2 Stock Rifles. 3 f 2 to 3 f 10- 7 to 10 lbs. cal. 35 to 6o. Back action side locks, double triggers, 2/3 [with?] walnut stocks, some with patch box & some without, mostly iron mounted - plain, a few patent breeched, solid percussion. . . . [Also] 20 Rifle Barrels - 3 f 6 to 4 feet. cal 3 3 to 5o. 8 to 11# each - 20 D[itt]o D[itt10 3 f 6 to 4 feet 6o to 140. 7 to 8#. .

And in July of 1848 Albright wrote James Henry a lengthy letter, asking in part for:
a case of Percussion Rifles soon as possible furnished at the lowest prices you can. length of Bbls from 33 to 39 inches assorted; Bore from 32 to 40 [to the pound].-if you can make them for 50 cts less by leaving off patch box, I would prefer it. also put me in one of the lowest price Indian Rifles flint 3 ft 6 in bbl, 32 bore, & if the pattern & prices suit me I will order 50 or more to be made. . . . Tryon has sent me some sample guns - but they have not yet reached me;- Blunt & Syms makes up a very handsome finished gun with walnut whole stock & handsome box for $7.- Also a very good Rifle with the Brass musket mounting, solid percussion, a good lock, & well finished, for $6.oo. The difficulty that the bbls are only 30 inches long if they were 4 inches longer, I could sell them fast.... I want about 6 of my bbls. Rifled & Brich pins screwed with long strap--you may have the gain twist them, (in the shortest bbls-). . . .

NOTES:
1) In the first two orders note that they were ordering calibers as small as .32".
2) The Indian Rifles were flint locks
3) An apparent preference for barrels longer than 30"
4) The long strap aka tang like a Hawken.

[Oregon Bill]

Great thread Chuck. The pewter nosecap sure was popular wasn't it? Three out of seven with back-action locks, if I am seeing right.

[River City John]

Thanks Chuck!

I see Peep sights, or is it a Creedmore sight, were mounted to rifles of that era.



RCJ

[Oregon Bill]

Just noticed the top rifle and the fourth down in the group photo appear to have rear sights adjustable for elevation. Interesting that nearly all the rear sights are mounted half way down the barrel.

[Blair]

Bill,

Just a suggestion on my part...

When you go to set up and/or build your Rifle, place the rear barrel sight (whatever type you chose) just to the rear of the center balance of weight, or carrying point of the rifle.
This will keep you hand and/or clothing from being gouged or torn by the sight.
My best,
Blair

[Oregon Bill]

Blair, I am closing a deal on a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken. I'll be curious to know where the balance point lies vis a vis the rear sight.

[Blair]

Bill,

There are several factors involved that effect the overall weight of the Rifle, barrel dia. (flat to flat), barrel length along with caliber.
I would like to know that bit of info for myself as well.
My best,
Blair

[Oregon Bill]

Blair, when I have it in hand, I'll report. These rifles in maple run close to 10 pounds in .54, with 34 5/8-inch barrel an inch across the flats. It should "make 'em come," I guess.

[FEATHERS]

Any help appreciated ! I was asked to make a buckskin scabbard for a Hawken 50 cal, 50 inch total length as a surprise birthday gift by a friend wife ! My main problem is not having access to the rifle I can't measure the thickness of the stock & can't find anything online ! I don't want to make it so that is too tight ! thanks for any info in advance !!!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Any help appreciated ! I was asked to make a buckskin scabbard for a Hawken 50 cal, 50 inch total length as a surprise birthday gift by a friend wife ! My main problem is not having access to the rifle I can't measure the thickness of the stock & can't find anything online ! I don't want to make it so that is too tight ! thanks for any info in advance !!!

There are two points that I consider.
1. Top of hammer or cock to the bottom of the trigger guard/finger rest.
2. Around the forend and backsight. The muzzle should be OK unless there is a prominent globe sight. Just make it straight from the backsight on forward.

Use a "strap" of a similar leather and wrap it loosely around the location and allow a pinch of at least 1 inch. (Circumference + 2 inches) When tracing the pattern, avoid any wasp-waist profile. Tapered, or at least straight the whole way.

Perhaps you have access to another firearm of similar measurements, even in a localgunshop (LGS)?

This is just a rough guide, so measure twice cut once!

[FEATHERS]

Thanks for the reply Sir Charles !! I'm fairly confident with the pattern I have drawn up ! I am just worried about the thickness of the timber of the rifle !! I did find a site with the measurements of the fittings, the butt plate was 2- 1/6" wide ! It's just that the timber looks wider around the cap fittings ! thanks again !

[Blair]

FEATHER,

The area around the lock and the trigger guard are indeed wider. Perhaps more so with a flint lock. More room is needed in this area.

What Sir Charles suggests is right on the money.
My best,
Blair

[FEATHERS]

that's what I figured Blair ! as I'm in Australia, I'm limited on saucing any hands on info ! & even if I had access to the rifle, it's a 4 hour drive to measure the Hawken !

[Blair]

FEATHERS,

Two pieces of brain tanned leather should be used in this type of construction. This depends greatly on the size of each of the finished hide.
Added goodies like fringe may require additional hides.

Ask your friend to take measurements with a tape measure at the muzzle end, rear sight location and the lock  trigger guard area. Add one inch to each side/half. 2 inches total.
Keep in mind these were loose fitting and meant to be removed easily.
My best,
Blair

[FEATHERS]

thanks Blair ! this is what she has in mind for his Hawken !

[Blair]

FEATHERS,

Nice looking set up!

Check out "Packing Iron". There are several such rifle scabbards along with descriptions on how they were constructed.
My best,
Blair