Which is more historically correct?

[LonesomePigeon]

...a Lyman Great Plains Rifle or a CVA Mountain Rifle?

[Blair]

Each firearm is very well done for their respective time and place of usage.
Perhaps you need to be a bit more specific as to what you want to use either of these firearms for?
Just a thought on my part.
My best,
Blair

[Grenadier]

...a Lyman Great Plains Rifle or a CVA Mountain Rifle?

The Lyman would probably be easier to "correct" to something seen historically.

[Quick Fire]

Grenadier wrote"The Lyman would probably be easier to "correct" to something seen historically". How so?

[LonesomePigeon]

Blair, I just bought my first rifles, two Thompson/Center Hawken's, a .45 cal percussion and a .50 cal percussion and shortly thereafter found out that T/C Hawken's are not considered historically correct enough for the American Plainsmen Society here. I am allowed to shoot the T/C's at the local matches of my local muzzle loading society but I would kinda like to sell them and get something that would be more broadly accepted in case I ever had the opportunity to go to a larger rendezvous somewhere.

I am also considering the Hawken Halfstock kit from Pecatonia River http://www.longrifles-pr.com/hawkenhalf.shtml but I have never built a kit and am not too sure I could do it.

[Blair]

LonesomePigion,

Some of the primitive shooting groups will allow the TC Hawken type firearms with a change of the modern sights to primitive style.
I would suggest you check with those groups to see what they recommend for sights as well as their recommendations for more authentic firearms.
Kits can be a lot of work. If you are not familiar with doing this kind of work, I would suggest you look to the finished firearm.
CVA use to have a pretty poor reputation for QC. I do not know if this is still the case.
Folks here will be better informed on these subjects than I. I simply have not kept up to date on what is acceptable.
I hope this helps.
My best,
Blair

[Grenadier]

Grenadier wrote"The Lyman would probably be easier to "correct" to something seen historically". How so?

The proportions are more akin to historical rifles than the CVA models. The wood is also typically better, since most CVA's are made from beech and I have never seen an American plains rifle made from beech. If you head over to American Longrifles, you can see several GPR by Lyman that have been customized that look phenomenal.

[St. George]

If you're going to build a kit - first buy one of the books devoted to that very topic.

They're not difficult to build, per-se - they 'are' difficult to build correctly...

While you're at it, you 'are' going to need to possess some woodworking and metalworking skills, so if you don't - develop some.

Get copies of catalogs from 'Dixie Gun Works' and 'Track of the Wolf' and a few others, as well - they'll give you an idea of what you're after as far as a finished product - 'plus' they'll have finished products for sale.

Personally, I'd suggest just buying one, but buying a good one - not a CVA or a Lyman - look for an older Navy Arms.

Sadly, not everyone's a fan, and the used black powder stuff brings very little money at the average gun show - especially one with a preponderance of 'black guns' - attend a few, and you'll see - especially check the prices on Sunday, when nothing's sold.

At a 'buckskinner' show, the prices will be higher, but the attendees are all fans, but the advertising can sometimes mislead, so if you're looking for a bargain, then look at how the patrons dress - stained Carhartt jackets, beards, camo, attitude and ball caps = lower pricing - buckskin fringe, moccasins, beards and some nut with a fiddle = higher pricing.

Good Hunting!

Scouts Out!

[Niederlander]

I would add, if you see a lot of dew rags, black wife beater shirts, and forearm tattoos, the black powder stuff will be almost free!

[Tsalagidave]

The CVA,TC guns and others like them are great starters for afternoon plinking, taking your kids to the range, and cap off some quality trigger time in your plain clothes.  That being said, comparing them to the quality, workmanship and materials to an original or "living history" grade longarm is like comparing a go-cart to classic muscle cars.  There are "de-farb" methods that can make their historical inaccuracies less apparent but the reason for such guns not being the approved authenticity list is so that our standards would match those of the majority of historic muzzle loading clubs.

As a side note, you don't even need a muzzle loader to be a part of this group.  Just bring your curiosity, your knowledge and your enthusiasm. The only time the historic standards apply is when our members meet at the various events, there must be a line drawn as to what is historically representable and what is not.

To all those who have muzzle loaders that don't cut the authentic muster, don't let that stop you from joining us for events or asking me to come with you to the range.  That's just my game and it's always better done with friends.

-Dave

[Blair]

Dave,

Great reply!
My best, and a Happy Holliday.
Blair

[LonesomePigeon]

Thanks for all the replies. Dave, the rules don't bother me at all. It's more like they made me aware and now I want something more historically correct. The guy who sold me the T/C's also had a Lyman and a CVA for the same price so I might be able to trade back straight across, assuming he still has them. There's also a couple CVA's on gunbroker for a good price. I'm just don't want to go through with getting a Lyman or CVA and be disappointed later on if I start to notice too many "incorrect" features.

[Professor Marvel]

generally speaking , the "Hawken" plains rifle gets the most "press" probably due to the various movies such as
"Jeremiah Johnson", "The Mountain Men", etc etc

The reality is that the "J.S. Hawken" shop did not make that many rifles, and additionally they made a number of styles over the course
of the years, from a flintlock fullstock up to the "ultimate" large-bore caplock half-stock rifles.

Hawken was not the only maker, there were numerous makers of "plains rifles", so one may want to cogitate upon what
one actually desires, and for what time period. It is important to remember that one should pick hardware that would be "generally available" by the desired year, but it can still be in use long afterwards. Many frugal or crotchety individuals refuse to upgrade from "perfectly good" hardware unless there was a very legitimate reason - going to war, for example...

I myself decided 4 distinct long-guns for my spread across the "pre-cartridge" time periods:
1) a generic flintlock trade musket in ~20 ga which covers from F&IW period thru civil war - the most common are the French Fusils
2) a Lehman Trade fullstock flint rifle in .50 which covers the height of the fur trade period
3) a caplock plains halfstock in .54 which covers from ~ 1835 past the civil war
4) a Sharps 1863 paper-cutter in .54 which covers from 1863 up well into the cartridge era

Since I have settled on caplock revolvers, my colt 1851's can be mixed with the caplock half-stock or the Sharps,
as can the Remington New Model Army's . I am still building a caplock side-by-side shotgun which can also be used anytime from
~ 1830 forward.

When playing CAS, I use remington cartridge conversions with my 1866 yellowboy and an old original belgian 12 ga....
ah, if only I could find  an affordable, functioning 12 ga pinfire double!

But I digress....

if one decides, that one *must* have a J.S. Hawken over an alternate half-stock plains rifle, it would behoove one to do a bit of
homework . Rather than re-type an encyclopedia, allow me to refer your to these excellent websites:

wikipedia only skims the very surface, but does provide some names and dates
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawken_rifle

"Mountain Men" gives us a tisch more on the plain rifle
   http://www.mman.us/plainsrifle.htm

the NRA museum gets us deeper, and shows us a variation from the 'standard" iron trigger guard
   http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum/the-galleries/the-prospering-new-republic/case-29-the-rifle-shop-and-the-plains-rifle/samuel-hawken-plains-rifle.aspx

the Hawken Shop gives us more specific details of features
   https://www.thehawkenshop.com/hawken_rifles.htm

It is good enough, please allow me to quote them:
snip---------------------------------------
Hawken Facts:

There are a multitude of sizes and styles of "Hawken" rifles - almost as varied as the men who carried them
Therefore, when we talk about "Hawken" rifles in this catalog we are referring specifically to the "Classic"
half stock, iron mounted, big bore, "Plains" rifle. This rifle is steeped in history and linked with the opening of the West;
a rugged and manly, yet beautifully graceful piece of working hardware.

Now, just what is it that makes a "Classic" Hawken Plains Rifle? The criteria are listed as follows:
- a bare minimum bore size of .50 caliber (most average .54),
- patent hooked breech,
- all iron furniture (including nosecap),
- hourglass tang,
- long bar double set triggers
- scroll iron guard attached,
- 2 keys with iron oval escutcheons held to stock by two screws each,
- copper based German silver blade front sight,
- and plain maple stock.

Variations accepted as original are:
- one or two piece braised butt-plate,
- one piece poured pewter,  or two piece braised nosecap,
- flat sided snail of J & S period or  S. Hawken full scoop on patent breech,
-  straight breech or slanted,
- 1 1/8" barrel straight or tapered or 1" straight octagonal barrel,
- and occasionally fancy wood and patchbox.

Other things about Hawken rifles in general which might be of some interest to you are:

A. There is nearly a 1/4" taper from front to rear of the lock plate area side to side.
B. There is usually a very slight belly to the forestock, the buttstock, and the comb to buttplate area.
C. Heel of buttplate always touches ground first when barrel is held vertical to ground. The toe is off the ground from 1/4" to 3/4"
D. The forward sweep of the beaver tail cheek piece forms a continuing line with top edge of flat opposite lockplate, interrupted at wrist, it disappears.
E. Vast majority of stocks are plain maple.
F. Underrib usually affixed to barrel with screws; sometimes filed off and peened flat to under radius.
G. Soft solder half moon fill visible at muzzle end of underrib.
H. Slotted cross keys.

These features are among those most commonly encountered, but as mentioned before not always. One or more may be lacking on a specific rifle since each gun was hand crafted and later alteration may have been undertaken for various reasons. This classic rifle is once again available through "The Hawken Shop" ™

endsnip---------------------------------------
-----
Now, with all this in mind, let us look at some originals!

http://www.historicalarms.com/antique-guns-rifles-muskets-carbines-for-sale/hawken-rifle-for-sale.html
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Black%20Powder%20Muskets/Hawken%20Rifle/A%20Samuel%20Hawken%20rifle.htm
http://www.historicalarms.com/antique-guns-rifles-muskets-carbines-for-sale/hawken-rifle-for-sale.html

So, what we can see is ... there are many variations ... even brass vs steel, blue, vs brown ,vs "white"
a variety of barrel lengths...

With this in mind, let us now pop over to our friends

here is what Pedersoli offers:
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_34/rifles-hawken.html

this is what Track of the Wolf  offers

Here is their Flint Fullstock Hawken, based on a "museum piece"
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/604/1/EARLY-HAWKEN-FULLSTOCK-FLINT-PARTS-LIST

Here is the Kit Carson Rifle, based on the actual rifle in the Taos NM museum
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/615/1/KIT-CARSON-HAWKEN-RIFLE-PARTS-LIST

Here is Bridger's rifle, based on one of his known guns
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/615/1/JIM-BRIDGER-HAWKEN-RIFLE-PARTS-LIST

and for comparison here is the Lyman GPR halfstock in .54 caplock
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/536/3/LYMAN-GPR-54-P

So if you have your heart set on a J.S Hawken style halfstock caplock both the Pedersoli and the Lyman GPR
are remarkably close. Both have adjustable rear sights but these can easily be replaced with a partial or full buckhorn
which is correct to a plains rifle.

My personal choice would be the Lyman GPR in .54 caplock. The CVA mountain rifle is more slender and lighter, but some feel is an appropriate reproduction of a plains rifle.

hope this helps
prof marvel

[LonesomePigeon]

Thank you Prof. A lot to mull over.

[Tascosa Joe]

If you buy chance live within decent driving distance of the Cody Museum in Cody, WY, they have 6 or 7 Hawken Rifles on display.  Also the one of the Museums in Denver had Mario Modinos Hawken on display.  I think it was the Colorado Historical Museum but it has been years since I have been there.

[ChuckBurrows]

With all due respect to Track of the Wolf their Hawken mountain rifle kits (mountain rifle is technically and historically the correct term - in the 1850's the Hawken shop advertised they made and sold mountain and California rifles - plains rifle is 20th Century collectors term) are a mostly generic version of the Hawken mountain rifles.
FWIW - I have been studying the Hawken since I saw my first one in a 1962 Guns magazine (still have the copy) and have had the good luck to examine several over the years, including both J & S (prior to mid-1849) as well as those built by Sam and later Gemmer.
Anyway IMO the absolute best and most authentic kits are those offered by Don Stith since all his offerings are exacting copies of originals including his Carson rifle.

Here is some info garnered from Don Stith, Louie Parker, and Jerry Gniemi (sp?) who have examined more original still existing Hawkens than anyone I know of.

Barrels: Hawken barrels are mostly tapers with straights and swamps being the rarities per Don Stith. Mine is 1.040 taper to .970 and 37" , and 52 cal. Full stocks tend to be smaller barrels with less taper than the half stocks. Personally, I would not go larger than 1 1/16 at breech . With a flint tang I would go 38" long. Barrel lengths: existing examples include barrels from 31" to 44 5/8", with 36" to 40" being the most typical.

Stocks: maple, both plain and figured, are the most common. Walnut exists, but maple is typical. Don Stith's J&S halfstock was walnut and his friend has a Gemmer Spencer stocked in walnut, but even including those, he can count the number of walnut ones he's seen on one hand. In talks with Don he suggested that Hoffman and Campbell, basically a subsidiary of the Hawken Shop, made the walnut stocked mtn rifles including the fancy Medina rifle and the Parkman rifle. Finishes were most commonly colored varnishes and stocks appear to be un-dyed where the finish has worn off. While many rifles appear to have a real dark finish, this may be due to aging of the linseed oil with lead dryers based varnishes commonly used.

Metal Work finishes: The barrel, rib and thimbles were blue. The breech and tang were cased as well as the lock, butt plate, trigger guard, trigger bar, entry thimble and nose cap. Not the highly colored case of modern firearms but a mottled grey case that some of the early makers called forge casing.
The proper finish for the other iron parts,trigger guard,buttplate , lock,etc is case hardened. Not the highly colored case of modern firearms but a mottled grey case that some of the early makers called forge casing.

The blue is fairly dark. If doing the rust blue, don't over polish or you get too bright a color. It is not the deep translucent blue seen on European guns. per Don Stith: I usually just do a satin brown followed by boiling in water to duplicate the color.

If anyone is ever in the Glorieta, NM area, check out Jim Gordon's museum which is chock full of fur trade period items, including several Hawkens one of which is the Medina rifle. For contact info look up Tumbling River Ranch.

final caveat: unfortunately a bunch of the info available on the net and in some books regarding Hawken Mtn rifles, is old and too oft repeated. For instance we now know that Etienne Provost owned a Hawken rifle as early as 1829, the same year Kenneth McKenzie, FT. Union factor, ordered two Hawkens, and a year later in April of 1830, 9 Hawken rifles were shipped by the AFCo to Ft Union.

[olpete37]

howdy and happy holidays to all:  may i suggest the best historical view is by charles e hanson jr in his book  "the plains rifle" still available from the museum of the fur trade , chadron, ne. or via amazon.  also  "the hawken rifle..its place in history" also by mr hanson.  additionally 2 books by john baird are  "interesting' to peruse,  altho i reccommend hanson's above all.    nothin' like usining what those old boys had,  by gar!

[Tsalagidave]

Gentlemen, this is a great discussion. Chuck and Prof Marvel, I must single you both out for praise here. Your answers were direct, detailed and came with a plethora of information given in a manner that only a teacher's heart could give.  My experiences with reading your replies over the past few years has left me feeling certain that if someone asked you the same question a hundred times, you'd answer it a hundred times and then be ready for 101 if any doubt still remained.  This is exactly what our hobby needs and it is why so many of our group of pards here have so much value to the American culture we celebrate. I could say a lot to the rest of you guys but I'm really not trying to write a book here.  However, your combined enthusiasm, knowledge and experience creates the right environment for others to feed off of and eventually plug in with.

I have seen so many times where either lazy or momentarily grumpy  living historians chastise new members for asking honest questions and then demand that they go off and search for the answer themselves and it makes my heart sink every time I watch that scenario play out. Honestly, the most guilty parties have been my fellow "hardcores" and it has always made me mad.  If you find yourself answering questions both common and uncommon and you find yourselves learning a little or a lot more, every time you come together with your pards, you're doing it right.  We are members of a hobby that teaches.  By proxy, we are teachers and students at the same time.  I have been an experienced shooter now for over 35-years.  Much of that time has been muzzle loading.  This discussion has produced leads that have helped me learn a little more about a topic that has become a lifelong interest. 

Thank you pards for another learning opportunity.

-Dave

[ChuckBurrows]

You're welcome Dave and I learned a long time ago that there are no stupid questions (reasonable ones anyway   )......also when younger and trying to learn I too often ran into many craftsman that wouldn't share what was really common knowledge and I swore I would never be that guy - in my own business of crafting historic/historically inspired pieces the only secret I didn't share was my method of aging bead work since, but that was pure business ($$$) decision.
Today as compared to when I started down this road (shot my first BP percussion gun at age 8 -1961 - and flinter a year later)the availability of GOOD research (one should still be conscious of source, etc. and cross reference to verify as well) is amazing and with the Internet often just a few clicks away. Back when interlibrary loan and traveling (often hundreds of miles or more) for info was it.
Sometimes I have to laugh at myself from those days how eager I was to learn. In 1972 I had plans to visit the Museum of the Fur Trade, Colorado Historical Society, and then onto a rendezvous in South Dakota. I left my home in Seattle and made it to Pendleton, OR, where my truck broke down (blew a piston) and it would take too long to fix and still meet my time line.
So I worked up a pack for me and my dog (a 120 lb 7 year old wolf hybrid), wore my skins and with rifle gun in one hand stuck out my thumb. Now remember this was 1972, I'm dressed in buckskins with a Jake Hawken mtn rifle in hand, belt knife and hawk, long hair in braids, and a wolf dog, and at that time I was literally taking my life in hand crossing some of the most conservative areas (lots of cowboys who liked to kick Hippie butt) in the USA. But it turned out most folks were just curious and interested. Still it was quite the trip (about 1500 miles one way - caught a ride home with friends) for doing personal research. BTW here's me in 1972 - an d everything I'm wearing/carrying was based on the best PC/HC info available at the time (the big fur hat was based on the one worn by Joe Meek when he went to Washington DC in the late 1840's.



Being as I'm still fighting the Big C forums are one of my main ways of keeping up with folks these days.....

[Mean Bob Mean]

Being as I'm still fighting the Big C forums are one of my main ways of keeping up with folks these days.....

Just a note to say you are in our thoughts and prayers then dear sir.