RN bullets in tube magazines

[PJ Hardtack]

A while back I read an article by Dave Scovill in "Rifle" magazine about bullets in tube magazines. He concluded that it wasn't the problem it is thought to be as the nose of the bullet behind is not centred on the primer of the round ahead.

Subsequently, Mike Venturino wrote an article where he makes the following statement:

"Few modern riflemen realize that the tubular magazine was used in Paul Mauser's bolt action Model 71/84. Also worthy of note is that the US Army ceased testing Marlin's first lever action 45-70 repeater - the Model 1881 - after it suffered two cartridge explosions in it's tubular magazine.
THE CAUSE WAS THE ROUND NOSE OF THE 45-70 GOV'T BULLET BUMPING THE PRIMER OF THE CARTRIDGE AHEAD OF IT DURING RECOIL.
Shortly thereafter the reloading tool manufacturer Ideal came out with it's flatnose bullet mould 457193 that is still offered by Lyman. In early catalogs it was designated especially for Marlins."

So who is right? Many people shoot RN loads in their lever action pistol calibre rifles with powder puff loads, but there is no recoil. I can feed Lyman 500 gr 457125's from the magazine in my Browning '86. Now I'm not sure this is a good idea unless I'm shooting squib loads, something I'm not likely to do with a 45-70. I do have the 457193 mould as well, but I like the accuracy of the heavier bullet in my rifle.

Other than single loading my 500 gr loads, what say you .... ?

[Jake C]

I'd say why risk it? Flat nose bullets/boolits are readily available and not at all expensive. Just my 2 cents.

[yahoody]

Round nose bullets in a tubular magazine of ANY Pistol caliber (an even worse idea in a harder kicking rifle caliber) are a sure fire KAboom at some point.  Problems enough with just a simple high primer.   

[Drydock]

I have personally witnessed 2 magazine detonations, both factory 38 special rns, one in a Marlin 94, one in a Rossi 92.

The first was caused by recoil.  The 2nd when someone set the loaded rifle down on its buttplate rather too hard. These were both back in the early 90s, in the early days of CAS.  We learned.

Don't do it.

It should be noted that the Mauser round in question was a bottlenecked round, which does give an extra margin of error in these circumstances.  It should also be noted that the French 8mm, with even a more pronounced taper/bottleneck, was given a capture slot around the primer to further prevent such detonations.  Certainly no one using a straight cased round should even consider it.

Tubular magazines were abandoned as fast as possible by militaries world wide for just this reason.

Dave Scovill is an excellent gunwriter.  But I do not consider this article one of his better efforts . . .

[PJ Hardtack]

I'm going to research the article by Scovill to see how and why he justified the issue. But looking at my factory 30-30 ammo with RNSP bullets, the practice has been around for a long time with lever action ammo.

All things considered, I think I'll restrict 500 gr RN bullets in my '86 to single loading.

Thanks all for the input.

[Coal Creek Griff]

When you research it, could you let us know which issue contains the article(s)?  I'd like to read what they wrote, but probably won't page through my back issues.

Years ago, I used to shoot some fairly heavy loads in my '86 using the Lee 405 gr. hollow base bullet.  The meplat is close to the same diameter as a large rifle primer and I got nervous about it.  I stopped using that mold for ammo used in tubular magazines, moving on to the Lyman 457193, which has a larger meplat.  I never had one go off in the magazine, but I decided it wasn't worth the risk.

CC Griff

[August]

If airplanes always stayed straight and level in flight, they wouldn't be stressed to 5+ G's. 

If no one ever dropped, bumped, or ran into props with a rifle, then it would be O.K. to have a bullet nose sitting on a primer.

Just hope I'm on a different posse when the Gremlins come to visit.

[PJ Hardtack]

I won't go thru' my back issues either. I'll look for it on google.

The only way I'll shoot my '86 now with the 457125 is single loading and one in the mag tube. That'll work for hunting.
Other than that, I use the 457193 in the '86.

[Sloan Dodgy]

The 1871 Mauser in 11,15x60R was a single shot, and the ammo was loaded with a 386 grain lead paper-patched round nose.  When they modified the rifle in 1884 (Mod 71/84) to an 11,15x60R tube feeder, they changed a few other things, one being the bullet became a 386 grain lead paper-patched flat point.

Oddly enough, Remington's .30-30 ammo has been loaded with jacketed round nose bullets for years, and as far as I know, the .35 Remington has always been so loaded. Go figure.

[Coal Creek Griff]

I mistyped earlier. I use the flat point bullet in my '86.  I corrected my post above.

CC Griff

[Delmonico]

The 1871 Mauser in 11,15x60R was a single shot, and the ammo was loaded with a 386 grain lead paper-patched round nose.  When they modified the rifle in 1884 (Mod 71/84) to an 11,15x60R tube feeder, they changed a few other things, one being the bullet became a 386 grain lead paper-patched flat point.

Oddly enough, Remington's .30-30 ammo has been loaded with jacketed round nose bullets for years, and as far as I know, the .35 Remington has always been so loaded. Go figure.

Tapered bottlenecks instead of straight cases, makes a lot of difference.

[wildman1]

Tapered bottlenecks instead of straight cases, makes a lot of difference.

How? wM1

[dusty texian]

Cause most bottleneck cartridges , in a spring loaded magazine do not stack straight . They tend to point left or right off center of the cartridge ahead of it. I would not trust that as a OK for not useing a flat bullet in a spring loaded tube feed magazine .,,,,DT

[PJ Hardtack]

My post generated a lot more interest than I thought it would .....

Scovill's comments suggested that the BN shape of the 30-30 and other cases put the nose of the primer below the primer sufficiently to negate detonation. Laying out a series of cartridges seems to bear this out.

I've never heard of a mag tube detonation with this type of ammo.

[wildman1]

Cause most bottleneck cartridges , in a spring loaded magazine do not stack straight . They tend to point left or right off center of the cartridge ahead of it. I would not trust that as a OK for not useing a flat bullet in a spring loaded tube feed magazine .,,,,DT

Yep ya would only need one. wM1

[Coffinmaker]

I was acquainted with a CAS shooter in Colorado (where I started) who always wore a glove on his left hand.  Seems most of his left hand was missing and the remainder was pretty grisley (spell??).  The result of a magazine detonation in a Winchester 94, 30-30.  
He tried, unsuccessfully, to sue Winchester and Olin (ammo).  Was told he was stupid to put pointy bullets in a tube magazine (I agree).

I was personal witness to a Mag detonation, with .38s, round nose, in a '92.  For whatever reason, the '92 blew out the "off side" of the mag, and other than needing a change of underwear, no human damage was done.  I consider anyone who advocates anything other than flat nose bullets in a tube magazine to be a fool.  Oh, and stupid.

Coffinmaker

[Sagebrush Burns]

I am running the Lyman 454190 which has a small meplat in three different lever guns (M-73, M-92, Spencer) with no problems.