Army 45s

[The Pathfinder]

Ok, some time ago I remember a discussion that was talking about the different 45 caliber arms the Army used. So on the list I have the following...

1871 Richards Conversion, 44 Colt (heeled bullet @.451)
1873 Colt SAA, 45 Colt
1875 S&W Schofield, 45 S&W
1878/1902 Colt DAA, 45 Colt (Philippine or Alaskan model)
1909 Colt, 45 Colt DA
1911 Colt, 45 ACP
1917 Colt, 45 ACP
1917 S&W, 45 ACP


I can't think of any other production models, and am not sure if the 1905 Colt, 45 ACP was considered beyond experimental or a trial gun if at all. I know the 1878 Colt was issued up north, but can't remember any US issue. Can anyone else think of any US issue 45s?

[Grapeshot]

The 1878 Colt DA .45 was issued to the troops in the Philippines when the .38 Colt failed to stop the Morro's from killing US Army Officers on the Battle Field. (1900 - 1909)

[Tascosa Joe]

The 1878's that went to the Philippines had the extra large trigger guard.  Know to collectors for years as the Alaskan Model.

[The Pathfinder]

That would be the 1902 model, I believe. I'll edit the original post to reflect.

[Charles Isaac]

Can anyone else think of any US issue 45s?

HK Mk23.






Sorry, couldn't resist

[Delmonico]

Does the OSS count? 

[The Pathfinder]

Dang, can't believe I forgot about the liberator, I was just reading about them last week. I'll add it to the list. Thanks, Delmonico.

Charles, did I miss the HK? I thought we were still on the M9, nice pistol but I still prefer the old Colt 1911. Hard to change after 40+ years of using one.

Also doesn't hurt I have the entire list except for the Liberator.

[Charles Isaac]

Charles, did I miss the HK? I thought we were still on the M9, nice pistol but I still prefer the old Colt 1911.

Mk23 is a "platform" that was adopted for "operators" -both Army and Navy.


http://navyseals.com/weapons-demo/mk23/

"The MK23 Mod O .45 cal SOCOM offensive handgun was developed by H&K specifically for U.S. Special Operations Command, and in 1996 was adopted as a service pistol under the designation MK23 Mod.0."

From what I understand,  they supposedly don't get issued much in the Army anymore due to being "Oh, that's sooooooo 90's! EEeeeeewwwww!!!"

Marines never stopped using the SOCOM 1911A1, a USMC home brewed beavertailed, funneled, extended etc. 1911A1. Colt makes the USMC SOCOM .45s now and they're called the M45A1. Still counts as a 1911 as far as we're all probably concerned.



Drop it in the sand and I'd probably lose it. These things sell for big bucks, of course, 'cause Marines are so freakin' cool!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Thompson, Reising, grease gun.

[Delmonico]

Thompson, Reising, grease gun.

Well if we talk long arms and I see he didn't say short ones we have to add the 1873 trapdoor and although use was limited, the Hotchkiss, as well as some Gatlings in 45-70 and the M3 Grease gun.

[Major 2]

Arguably some 6 Luger's were made in 45 ACP .
  #'s 1 & 2 were sent for testing to the US Military in March 1907.... # 1 being the test mule , # 2 now in a private collection.
#4 surfaced in Germany at the end of WW2 and taken as a war souvenir.

OP said "used".... "if" ...you'll allow as how,  tested for acceptance by the U. S. Army , as being used 

[The Pathfinder]

Ok, let's just say standard issue and handgun for the moment. And limit it till Viet Nam. Never got the 'modern' bug myself, even my Colt and S&W double actions are all pre-war and fixed sight. Heck, even my 1911's are just that, I don't even have an A1. As the wife says, I'm the biggest antique in my own collection.

[Delmonico]

Hoctchkiss was used in the field,  then there was that short 45 Mag 45X1 1/2" that was used in a few silenced sniper rifles in Nam, Barnes talks about it in COW.

[Bat 2919]

If you're talking about issue handguns you'll have to remove the Liberator from the list.  US Bought half a million of them but never issued a single one to US or any allied troops.  As a matter of fact most of them were never distributed as the military didn't see them as important enough to waste aviation fuel on.

This sort of dovetails with this subject so I'm going to add it here.  The President (with all the respect due the office and not necessarily the current occupant of said office) just signed the latest National Defense Authorization act which among other things contained a provision to allow the government to relinquish the Army's stockpile of about 900,000 surplus M1911 and M1911A1 pistols to the Civilian Marksmanship Program (old DCM), so that they can be sold to the general public.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/buy-your-surplus-ww-ii-era-1911-from-the-government/

https://thecmp.org/about/

[Charles Isaac]

Ok, let's just say standard issue and handgun for the moment. And limit it till Viet Nam.

   This thread is getting it's own set of rules now!


  Well, the Army's Richards Mason Conversion was actually chambered for a .45 caliber cartridge what with it's .451 caliber heeled bullet and all.



   

[Charles Isaac]

The President..........................allow the government to relinquish the Army's stockpile of about 900,000 surplus M1911 and M1911A1 pistols to the Civilian Marksmanship Program (old DCM), so that they can be sold to the general public.

   Wow, I'll bet he sure is working hard to make sure all of us law abiding citizens can get inexpensive GI .45s!

[Delmonico]

If you're talking about issue handguns you'll have to remove the Liberator from the list.  US Bought half a million of them but never issued a single one to US or any allied troops.  As a matter of fact most of them were never distributed as the military didn't see them as important enough to waste aviation fuel on.

Oh I know, but it does add to the discussion.   

[Delmonico]

   This thread is getting it's own set of rules now!


  Well, the Army's Richards Mason Conversion was actually chambered for a .45 caliber cartridge what with it's .451 caliber heeled bullet and all.



   

I was giving someone else a chance on that one.   

[The Pathfinder]

Ok, we strike the Liberty, and add the Richards. God I'm getting confused.

1871 Richards Conversion, 44 Colt (heeled bullet @.451)    Got it, at least a John Gren version of it.
1873 Colt SAA, 45 Colt      Got it, both an original and a USFA version.
1875 S&W Schofield, 45 S&W   Got it, original and Navy Arms replica in 45 Colt.
1878/1902 Colt DAA, 45 Colt (Philippine or Alaskan model)   Got it, both 1878 and 1902 versions.
1909 Colt, 45 Colt DA   Got it.
1911 Colt, 45 ACP   Got it, 1918 Black Army and Colt Black Army re issue.
1917 Colt, 45 ACP   Got it.
1917 S&W, 45 ACP   Got it.

Dang, that was more work than I thought.

[St. George]

First - it's 100,000 - not 900,000...



As of 2 December 2015 - this 'just' in from the CMP...



The NDAA 2016 has passed.

We have no further information concerning the status of the 1911s.

We will update our customers as we know more.

Please do not email or call with questions regarding the 1911s.

Our systems are overloaded.



**********



Here's the deal as I understand it, and I know folks within both ends of the disbursement of these unicorns that 'somehow' manage to cost money by lying dormant on shelves (which is a line of BS if you've ever heard one, so file it away).

The Army does control them - they still have unstated uses for them - they'll continue to have uses for them, and don't anticipate wanting to release 'any' of them to anyone for any reason - no matter 'what' the NDAA might say - possession being 9/10ths, and all that.

However, any regime change, no matter how anticipated and hoped for, will have its hands full for the next seven years (assuming the winning of a Second Term) digging out from the quagmire that 'this' regime managed to create will put this issue so far back into the Priority Cave that the guy who uses the Segway to go to the far end will have to look at a postcard in order to know what sunlight is supposed to look like.

Sad, but true.

They'll be 'so' busy attempting to restore some form of balance to America, and figuring out how to rescind practically every edict, that the term 'taking a back seat' just doesn't cover it.

Besides, if you've looked at the CMP and their business practices lately, an 'average-condition' M1911A1 - a Remington-Rand, say - will 'not' be cheap, nor will they be plentiful, and will likely be put onto one of their auctions.

It'll make the ones seen currently on 'Gunbroker' seem like the bargains of decades past, and all that's netted will be a 'Certificate of Authenticity' from the CMP that's exactly like the ones given for the M1s that they build from parts - you know, the ones with the new Boyd wood and 'CMP cartouche' and brand-new Criterion barrels that never felt the heat of Lake City M2 Ball, but they still sell them as being authentic Government rifles.

Sounds a bit cynical, I know - but I've seen a lot of the .45s currently in storage a few years back - of course my natural sense of curiosity made me look - and what I noted was the fact that they were rebuilds from the Army's 'Clean and Repair' Program, with receiver dates as late as mid-'70's through 80's- they weren't in-the-wrap, brand-new WWII production.

That doesn't mean that the receivers were built in the mid-70's through '80's for you literalists out there - they were 'rebuilt' and dated through those dates with the lettering around the right side of the trigger guard (example: 'A.N.A.D. 7-75') and the phosphate surface color wasn't the darker-color type seen on the post-WWII rebuilds that everyone's familiar with - it was a type of 'grey' like the color of condensation on a stainless steel faucet, for lack of a better term.

While there were the regular WWII slides, there were also a lot of the 'part number' slides used for replacement parts, and that was also true of the small parts as well, like hammers, barrels and slide stops and safeties.

There were a few thousand M3A1 'Grease Guns' in the building that were redone the same way - they must have been using up all of the spare parts. (I will say that in all my years of service, I had 'never' seen a rebuilt Grease Gun - never saw a brand-new one, either - but never a rebuild.).

As to the never-ending M1911-M1911A1 nomenclature business, what can one expect from the CMP, really?

They're a non-Government business building their own M1s and Carbines using non-issued, new wood and commercial barrels - yet inferring that they're 'Government-issued' - they surely can't be expected to tell the difference between iconic Service Pistols...

As this whole affair unwinds in the distant future, the pistols will be what they'll be - but the true treasures may well lie in what spare parts come to light, and believe me, there are a 'lot' of boxes and chests tucked away that no one's even looked at, much less opened.

Even the guys helping out in the M1 clean-up and sorting at Anniston haven't found them all, yet - and the marked crates haven't all made it out to their car trunks.

As to 'other firearms' in Government hands - like the myriad of revolvers and trainers and bolt actions used by Marksmanship and MWR facilities the world over - nope.

Those are long gone, and the pistols left are currently issued, and deemed 'Mission Essential', and besides, needy LE agencies have fist crack at those, as they do on shotguns.

Even the old Model 12s from the MWR program have been gone as well, and the CMP already got the standard .22 trainers and the air rifles, with the M12s being sold off when they'd surface.

The thing was, those sales were never really publicized - in order to buy - you had to 'know a guy' who'd tell you when, and those guys had needs.

Figure out what those needs were and fulfill them, and a happy man you would be...

Scouts Out!