USFA Walker value

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

One thing we seem to have ascertained, whatever it is that you have, it is not a USPFA or USFA product. 

[LonesomePigeon]

"It came with a USFA owners manual (which covered several BP models)."

That of itself is interesting. Could you list the bp models in the owners manual?

Is there any chance this could be a USFA Dragoon that somebody antiqued on their own? Perhaps they damaged the backstrap/trigger guard and it was originally a better fit.

I agree with yahoody, if it shoots well that's worth something.

[hatman]

"It came with a USFA owners manual (which covered several BP models)."

That of itself is interesting. Could you list the bp models in the owners manual?

Is there any chance this could be a USFA Dragoon that somebody antiqued on their own? Perhaps they damaged the backstrap/trigger guard and it was originally a better fit.

I agree with yahoody, if it shoots well that's worth something.

The front cover of the manual states United States Patent Fire-Arms Company.
Sections I - IV are generic instructions for bp revolvers
Section V is loading recommendations for:
- Walker Colt
- U.S. Dragoon (1st, 2nd, 3rd models)
- 1860 Army
- 1851 & 1861 Navy
- 1862 Police & Pocket Navy
- Baby Dragoon & 1849 Pocket
Section VI includes schematics of all the above models

[hatman]

OK, now here's something that might be a helpful clue:

Upon taking a closer look at the gun under bright light I see the cylinder has, in addition to a pretty indecipherable scene etching with a horse there is an etching of "US PATENT".
Right above that is another etching only partially readable.  It starts out "MODEL" then it looks like "US" and the rest is just a guess with "NR".

[LonesomePigeon]

hatman, on original, 2nd Gen and 3rd Gen Colt's the writing you describe would normally say "COLT'S PATENT" and "MODEL USMR". The fact that is says "US PATENT" eliminates Colt as the manufacturer and might be a clue as to who might have made it.

Have you taken the revolver apart yet? Uberti sometimes puts their symbol on the frame underneath the trigger guard.

[hatman]

Yes, it could be USMR.
If so, what would that mean?

No, I not yet taken it apart except for basic cleaning.

[LonesomePigeon]

USMR stands for United States Mounted Rifles as these Walker/Dragoon guns were originally designed for the Cavalry, to be carried in a saddle holster.

[hatman]

USMR stands for United States Mounted Rifles as these Walker/Dragoon guns were originally designed for the Cavalry, to be carried in a saddle holster.

Aaah, thanks for that.

So assuming that this really is an ASM gun in antiqued and beat up used condition and it shoots well, what do you think might be the appropriate price?

I'm asking because although the seller and I settled on $500 under the assumption it was a USFA, we chatted today about these findings in this thread and he agreed that a re-negotiation is fine (he's a good guy).

[yahoody]

Obviously a VERY good guy.
Wondered what a Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon was actually worth myself.. $350/380.
ASM...in rough condition?   even less imo.


http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Uberti-3rd-Model-Dragoon-.44Cal-Black-Powder-Revolver/productDetail/Black-Powder-Pistols/prod9999010501/cat100006BP

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/112387/uberti-1848-3rd-model-dragoon-steel-frame-black-powder-revolver-44-caliber-7-1-2-blue-barrel

http://www.texasjacks.com/goods/guns-n-stuff/percussion-revolvers-3/walker-dragoon-1/dragoons-3rd-model-1.html

[Major 2]

Well...being that you asked

a new Uberti is Regular Price: $449.9 Sale Price:  $379.99 right now at Cabela's

The ASM was about $150 new in final years ....  15 -18 years ago
And less, as there were ASM kits....

I'd say in today's market 175.00 - $200.00 and that's being fair

[yahoody]

By the look of it on fit and finish ...my guess would be a kit gun originally and even then not very well put together.

[Coffinmaker]

I'm of two minds here (don't bring me into this  )  I personally "think" it's an ASM.  It's in "rough" cosmetic condition.  I't cosmetic
condition is rough for anything made in the 20th/21is centuries.

Major 2 - Is being more than "Fair."  Kind is more likely.

There is something to be said for "it shoots good."  For an ASM, rough, $150 is top money if "it shoots good).  I personally wouldn't want
to assign a value unless I could take it apart and put a "glass" on all the markings.

Coffinmaker

[LonesomePigeon]

If it really shoots a consistent 5 inch group at 50 yards I'd gladly pay $150 for it, as long that 5 inch group is at point of aim. I wouldn't care what it looks like or what brand it is. That would be better performance than my Colt 2nd Gen 3rd Dragoon, which is admittedly a very good looking gun. So far it's shooting 6 inch groups about 18 inches high and 6 inches left at 25 yards.

[Major 2]

I'm of two minds here (don't bring me into this  )  I personally "think" it's an ASM.  It's in "rough" cosmetic condition.  I't cosmetic
condition is rough for anything made in the 20th/21is centuries.

Major 2 - Is being more than "Fair."  Kind is more likely.

There is something to be said for "it shoots good."  For an ASM, rough, $150 is top money if "it shoots good).  I personally wouldn't want
to assign a value unless I could take it apart and put a "glass" on all the markings.

Coffinmaker

I was going for fair.... kinda fair  

[hatman]

I've decided to give the seller $250 for a couple reasons:
- He was good enough to accept a renegotiation so I'm good with rewarding him a little for that
- It does come with a nice wood presentation box

I've made worse purchases over the years and $250 doesn't break the bank.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[LonesomePigeon]

I think that's fair for both parties. I would still compare the screw sizes, nipple sizes and serial number fonts to see if you can rule out any manufacterers. Any news about the other purported USFA he has? Does it have USFA markings or is it blank like this one?

[Cruizer Bill]

I'm the fellow with the two 3rd Model Dragoons.  I am a bullseye pistol shooter for 20+ years and been around guns for 49 years now.  I am an avid revolver shooter and have shot Master Class scores with my Smith 625-6, including many 100's on timed and rapid fire and even a 97-6x from the 50-yard line.  I own a Hammerli 280, a Feinwerkbau AW93, several M1911's, a Python, a Freedom Arms .454 and lots of other fun guns.

My Father in Law lived in Orange County, CA  and liked to go to the gun show in Costa Mesa at the Fairgrounds.  He passed away three years ago and I made many trips to his house to help take care of his wife.  He had LOTS of stuff he gathered  over the years.  Two years ago I found one of the Colt Third Model Dragoons and brought it home.  This is the one I sold to hatman.

Last month I found another gun.  This one is also in a wooded casr and has a powder flask with it.  Pretty nice case, not the best but very acceptable case.  The 2nd gun looks very much like the first but slightly less wear.  It is also antiqued to make it look very old but mechanically it is in very good condition.

Both guns came with the wood boxes and included an owners's manual.  Here is a scan of the cover of the owner's manual:
][URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Salty111/media/Dragoon%20Manual.jpg.html][/url]

The manual is cream colored.  I is four inches wide, six and a half inches tall and is 52 pages long.  

The gun has no markings as to who made it.  They cylinder does say US PATENT and USMR on it.  It also has the name of the engraver on it in very small print  " W L Ormsby  So  NY ".  Yes, that is the name of the real engraver.  The scene on the cylinder is that of a Calvary Charge.

So, what you all are saying is that someone got ahold of a kit gun and had the cylinder engraved, antiqued the gun, printed PHONY owners' manuals and built a presentation box for it?  That is what it would take to do as you suggest.  

I don't know, you could be right.  My Father in Law liked to buy guns at the gun show and he had plenty of disposable money.  These guns would certainly catch is eye and he could buy them no problem.  What this means is there are others just like them floating around and probably sold in California.  

Is this information of more value?
Thanks!
Bill

[yahoody]

More info is always good info.  The engraver?  The "real" engraver?

More on him here:

http://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2015/03/Engraver-W-L-Ormsby-was-a-renegade-bad-boy.html

I have a replica colt box for a SAA that looks to be a perfect copy from the late 1870s.  But made in ply wood.  Nicely stained ply wood at that    Real one would have been solid wood.  But I like it and almost worth what I paid for it.

Love to see more photos of the manual, gun and case.

Look anything like these?

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11299711

http://www.icollector.com/Armi-San-Marco-3rd-Model-Dragoons-Cal-44-SN-E58_i20699833

[Cruizer Bill]

I just noticed on the back cover of the owner's manual it says  COPYWRITE on it!!  That is a mis-spelling!  It should say COPYRIGHT on it!  The plot thickens!  A real company would not make a basic mistake like that. 

Could this be from CHINA??

[yahoody]

Forgot the most important thing Bill..."A warm WELCOME to the USFA forum "