Modern clones of the model 1860 army .44 cal. blackpowder

[blackpowder]

Hi all around,

I am new to the cap and ball revolver shooting and for my first gun I have a choice between a new old stock Pietta or Uberti 1860 army model in .44 cal. Both are made in Italy and both are roughly the same price as well as equal in quality (or so it seems). They also feel equally good when handled but I can not test and shoot them without buying. Which is the better choice? Does anyone out there have experience with both makers? Which one should I get? 


Any help is appreciated!

[The Pathfinder]

Blackpowder, welcome to the Land of Soot. When you say 'new, old stock', just how old? It used to be easy and say to buy the best quality you could and that meant Uberti, however the quality of the Pietta's I've seen lately are on a par with the Uberti's. If the Pietta is post 1910-11 I don't think you'll have any problems with it. Once you get addicted, like I have, you'll also have to have real Colt's and when you can find them one of the Belgium Centaures. Just treat it right, remember it's not a magnum and never will be, use black powder or approved subsitutes, and to clean and oil it after you shoot it and you should be fine. Also would help to have access to a pard who has shot them for some time to ask questions of. Good luck and enjoy your 1860's.

[Major 2]

Blackpowder, welcome to the Land of Soot. When you say 'new, old stock', just how old? It used to be easy and say to buy the best quality you could and that meant Uberti, however the quality of the Pietta's I've seen lately are on a par with the Uberti's. If the Pietta is post 1910-11 I don't think you'll have any problems with it. Once you get addicted, like I have, you'll also have to have real Colt's and when you can find them one of the Belgium Centaures. Just treat it right, remember it's not a magnum and never will be, use black powder or approved subsitutes, and to clean and oil it after you shoot it and you should be fine. Also would help to have access to a pard who has shot them for some time to ask questions of. Good luck and enjoy your 1860's.

I'm betting Pathfinder's typo meant 2010-2011  

On either you will find the Date code looking something like the example  [CD]...if you look at the date Code sticky I have placed at the head of this BB  the letters will indicate the year of manufacture  

[CD] by the way is 2009

[Coffinmaker]

First .... a personal Bugaboo.  Clone.  I hate the term "Clone."  If I could find the first scribe that described the reproduction guns as
"Clones," I'd take them out and just choke the living SH....... out of em.  They ARE NOT CLONES.  Just simple reproductions.  So there 

Back to your question.  No good answer.  How "old stock?"  Go back far enough and quality get's iffy.  I personally shoot Pietta.  There are usually less problems to fix to make them user friendly than a Uberti.  Uberti look really cool, but come with some real problems that can be a bear to remedy.  My personal recommendation would be the Pietta.  Replace the OEM nipples with SlixShot nipples (Longhunter Shooting Supply) and replace the OEM Main Spring with an after-market spring from VTI Gunparts.  Then go Play.

First ...... go up and read through "The Darksiders Den" and the other BP reference boards on this forum.  Tons of really good information.

Coffinmaker

[blackpowder]

I'm betting Pathfinder's typo meant 2010-2011  

On either you will find the Date code looking something like the example  [CD]...if you look at the date Code sticky I have placed at the head of this BB  the letters will indicate the year of manufacture  

[CD] by the way is 2009

Thanks, Major 2! I have a CL stamp on the Pietta and according your list it is from 2013. The Uberti, likewise, is from 2012. So both guns are fairly new pieces. Somehow the Pietta felt better in my hand and I took it.

One thing I noticed after taking it apart, cleaning and lubing it fresh, that when putting the barrel wedge back in place it locked the action when pushed in as far as it will go. I had to retract it a bit so the cylinder would rotate. Is that meant to be like that? Because on my original colt made in 1863 the action works with the wedge all the way in. Thanks.

[Major 2]

It's common, and it can be different reasons why...one is the wedge is only pushed in till the spring just engages the barrel flat.
If you are driving it deeper there is no need.

if the spring is not engaging the edge or has not protruded enough to engage, then the wedge needs a bit of fitting..
I say wedge , do not try to work the slot.... replacement wedges are cheap.
you just want the spring tip/catch to slip on to edge of the barrel....

I have worked many, but perhaps , I'm not articulate enough to explain my methods...
My Friend Coffin-maker, is first rate at making the guns run , and I also bow to Pettifogger for the explanations.
If you'd rather have the work done... I'd suggest Hoof Hearted  
( Coffin Maker is retired & I'm not sure Larson Pettifogger has a shingle out  )

They will chime in directly , and they speak volumes.




 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Blackpowder: if I understand you correctly you are looking for a shooter not a display pistol, and you are currently reducing your choice to 1860 Army repros from Pietta and Uberti of the 2nd decade of 21st centaury production. In that case I would go for the Pietta like Coffinmaker suggested.
However, I am biased here because this is a subject close to my heart.
If you have not yet made up your mind i'd like to suggest an alternative.
Because I learnt the hard way to prefer Belgian made Centaures aka Centennial "1960 New Model Armies" over their Italian replicas.
Hence if you can get hold of one of These Belgian Colts in good condition then grab it and run.
Because they were designed and manufactured as shooting irons during the 1960s and early 1970s.
The Belgian makers incorporated those finesses like harder steel, bottomed arbors, rifling groove diameters adjusted to their chambers' diameters, higher front sights etc. All these little but important things that make the Belgian the superior 1860 pattern pistol.
Just saying and I don't wish to steel this thread.
Long Johns Wolf

[Coffinmaker]

I hear that!!  Somebody mentioned my name   
First, Long Johns Wolf is spot on correct.  The Belgian made Centaures are VERY fine guns.  Somewhat hard to find this side of the pond.
Don't know why.  Many of them were imported.  I would guess, those that have them tend to hang on tight.  I would.

I'm a little confused by the OP.  Not sure if what is being described is a Uberti or a Pietta.  Uberti is always a problem for Barrel to Arbor fit and often jam the cylinder.  Pietta will do the same, but for a different reason.  First, as mentioned, don't drive the edge in "all the way."  In fact, you shouldn't be able to.  Normally, with a Pietta, the Barrel to Arbor fit is correct but the breach end of the barrel still contacts the cylinder face and needs to be dressed a bit to clear properly, and be squared up.  Also, before a Pietta is put into service, the Cylinder locking bolt needs to be fit to the cylinder notches.  Pietta does NOT fit them at the factory.  The bolt almost NEVER fits properly and will
cause throw-by and peening of the cylinder notches.

Since you obviously have access to the internet, I STRONGLY suggest you visit "The Open Range."  It's no longer active but has been retained as a "read only" site.  Therein, Larsen E Pettifogger has a multi page tutorial on making a Pietta run.  READ IT!!  It will save you
major headaches down the road.

I, and others (Pettifogger) describe current manufacture Open Top Percussion guns as well made KITS!!  All the parts are there, they just barely work.  The require fitting and fine tuning to be user friendly.  Once properly set up, percussion guns can be, and are, every bit as
reliable as suppository shooters (cartridge guns).  Lots of invaluable information is available on this site.  Take ya about a week to go thru it all.  Enjoy!!

Coffinmaker

[blackpowder]

Thanks Guys !

@Long Johns, my choices were limited to the 2012 Uberti and the 2013 Pietta. I already chose the Pietta as you would have done.

@Major 2, I think I understand you fine. The top of the wedge has a spring with a catch at the end. I should only push it in far enough for the catch to engage the barrel edge. I do and all is fine. I just don't understand what makes the wheel lock up when the wedge is pushed in further. Especially since it doesn't matter on my original colt how far the wedge is in - it always works.



 

[blackpowder]

@coffinmaker, just read your post now and thanks for the info. I will check out the website.

[wildman1]

Thanks Guys !

@Long Johns, my choices were limited to the 2012 Uberti and the 2013 Pietta. I already chose the Pietta as you would have done.

@Major 2, I think I understand you fine. The top of the wedge has a spring with a catch at the end. I should only push it in far enough for the catch to engage the barrel edge. I do and all is fine. I just don't understand what makes the wheel lock up when the wedge is pushed in further. Especially since it doesn't matter on my original colt how far the wedge is in - it always works.


When you push the wedge in farther it pulls the barrel and front part of the frame closer to the rear. wM1

 

[Abilene]

Howdy Blackpowder,
The reason your original works with the wedge all the way in is because it is worn.  On new guns, the more you shoot it the further in the wedge goes in.  Eventually if shot enough the gun will "shoot loose" and it will need some reworking, like maybe a new wedge and/or new arbor (cylinder pin).

[45 Dragoon]

They shoot loose because they aren't set up correctly. The more or less you shoot shouldn't matter a whit!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Hoof Hearted]

Thanks Guys !

@Long Johns, my choices were limited to the 2012 Uberti and the 2013 Pietta. I already chose the Pietta as you would have done.

@Major 2, I think I understand you fine. The top of the wedge has a spring with a catch at the end. I should only push it in far enough for the catch to engage the barrel edge. I do and all is fine. I just don't understand what makes the wheel lock up when the wedge is pushed in further. Especially since it doesn't matter on my original colt how far the wedge is in - it always works.



 

Often the ramp of the ratchet tooth is steep and as such when the TOTAL gap (these single stage Open top pistols have no cylinder bushing to hold the end gap at a given point) gets too tight the point or the hand will bind as it jams into the lead. Without relieving the ramp the pistol will need a bit more cylinder gap.
   This is harder to describe than to see............

   The 1860 "copies" (since I don't want Coffinmaker to blow up if I say "clones") can also have a related problem when the shape of the head of the bolt binds in the notch in the cylinder (if you push the cylinder back by over driving the wedge) causing the bolt to stick in the locked position.

   As said here before if the gun runs fine with the wedge inserted properly shoot it! It will smooth out (wear) as time goes by.

Welcome to the group!
Regards, HH

[blackpowder]

Thank you everyone for the welcome and thank you, Coffinmaker, for pointing me to the open range and L.Pettifogger's good write-up and illustrations on de-bugging Piettas. I'll work on this and report back after I shoot it for the first time. 

[Lefty Dude]

Do not wait to long to do the suggested tuning in the Pettifogger article. If the bolt is to wide it will distort the cylinder lock-up notches.
And most all Pietta bolt are wide and need adjusted.
BTW; a set of Harbor Freight diamond files will be your best friend.

[Forty Rod]

I bought a matched pair (NOT consecutively numbered) almost four years ago.  They are Uberti civilian models ( three screw frame) with Treso nipples and I had the back straps and trigger guards nickel plate befor they were delivered to me.

They are as good as any I've ever seen with the exception of a Belgian Centaure tha I bought in 1980 and had it stolen from me in 1988.  THAT was a fine gun, but I've never been able to find another and the Ubertis are very nearly as good.

I have no experience with Pietta 1860s,but some of their other stuff turned me off back when.  It is my understanding they have improved greatly in the last several years.