Canadians in the Boer war/South Africa

[smoke]

Sir Charles, thanks for that info on the pic.  I had no idea that he had a connection to an artillery unit.  I have no info on the picture if it was pre deployment or upon his return.  It is on our family genealogy site.

RsJ, I have seen that paperwork for both uncles but that is all I have seen.  I would appreciate any help on getting ahold of their compete service records.  Thanks for interpreting the info on it.  I do know that the 80th CIB was part of the Canadian 4th infantry div. but was disbanded and the men used as replacements for other units in the 4th CID.  What the heck are Attestation Papers?  They seem to occur at enlistment so would that mean he was transferred to the 42nd CIB before he went overseas?  I suspect that he saw action in France.  From what my mom tells me and can remember( she is 85) the war changed him.   

As you know, both uncles served in the Highland Battalions during the war so I'm gonna hijack my own thread a bit.  During WW1 would the 42 and the 73rd have worn?  Canadian 03 tunic?  Kilt?  If they wore the Kilt, would they have worn the P1902 SD "Scottish" cut away tunic?  I have ordered the Osprey book on hte CEF during WW1.  I hope that will answer some of this for me but it may not be specific enough.  Googling 42nd and 73rd CIB in WW1 has not given me definite answers.

RsJ, great pics of you in your Boer War uniforms, are the WPG products?   Did you know that WPG has the Canadian serge tunic now?  Also he has started to repro the 1899 Canadian Oliver pattern gear? 

Thanks again for all the info!

[PJ Hardtack]

A while back, I posted about a pair of Strathcona boots for sale - BUT - I did it on the wrong forum. Look for it on the BROW forum.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Smoke:

Watch your e-mail for a treasure trove of information regarding your Great Uncles .... including pdf files of their full C.E.F. service files, which are now available online as part of the ongoing digitization of those records! (I thought it best to send this stuff to you by e-mail rather than continue to divert this Boer War thread.)

[RattlesnakeJack]

Do you use one of WPG's repros?

Yes, I think the KD items I am wearing are from WPG.  Good stuff .... Not really the "regulation' 1896 pattern, but it is what is available .... 

At any rate, photographs from the Boer War show an extremely wide (almost bewildering) range of shades and patterns of tunics (with noticeable differences in pocket-flap configuration, as well as collars - i.e. both standing and "stand and fall" collar patterns at the same time.  As an example, this is a group of Officers of the 2nd Bttn., Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry in South Africa.  I think there is a mix of drill and serge tunics here,  which would account for some of the tonal differences, but note how "un-uniform" they seem to be -

The Canadian Tunic that you posted sure does look an awful lot like the Canadian WW1 tunic.  Is it possible that the Canadian tunic started out as simply a serge P'96 that later got hip pockets because the British had them?  Or maybe they were Brit issue that the Canadians added breast pockets because they were more practical?

Actually, the  main point I was trying to make about these apparently unique Canadian serge tunics is that they all apparently had both breast and skirt pockets from the outset, and in fact clearly look pretty much identical to the Pattern 1903 Canadian tunic, although clearly pre-dating its formal adoption in 1903 - in other words, that this pattern must have been a prototype or "trials pattern" introduced by Canada, which ultimately got adopted for general issue in 1903.  (It is, indeed, the P'1903 tunic which Canadian soldiers were wearing at the start of WWI in 1914.)

Here, for example, are two details from a group photo of men of the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles taken just after their return to Canada from South Africa in June of 1902, in which both British Pattern 1899 serge and "P'1903-like Canadian pattern" serge tunics are being worn.  The differences are fairly obvious, but one telling feature is that the standing collar of the Canadian-pattern tunics is substantially higher than that of the P'1899 British tunics ....

First, the Canadian pattern, which looks so much like the not-yet-adopted P'1903 tunic, including its 7-button front closure -


Now, other men of the same unit, in the same group photo, but wearing British pattern 1899 tunics (technically "field service frocks") with their shorter (and probably more comfortable) standing collars and 5-button front closure -

Every time I see pics of Canadian troops I think  "your hats are crooked...square them away!"     Really cool to see how the troops in the field personalized their head gear.

Actually, a Canadian naturally thinks that a peaked American campaign hat is being worn a quarter turn out of proper orientation!  And it is, of course, quite proper that we should think that way, since we were using the peaked felt hat pattern as military (and semi-military) headgear well before the Yanks started - i.e. in the 1890's, while formal adoption as part of the US Army uniform did not occur until 1911!

These men are members of the North West Mounted Police contingent in London for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee celebrations in 1897, with this style already well ensconced as part of their uniform -


   

[RattlesnakeJack]

.... What the heck are Attestation Papers?  They seem to occur at enlistment so would that mean he was transferred to the 42nd CIB before he went overseas? 
.... RsJ, great pics of you in your Boer War uniforms, are the WPG products?   Did you know that WPG has the Canadian serge tunic now?  Also he has started to repro the 1899 Canadian Oliver pattern gear? 

Smoke: In response to your first question, I am sending a fairly lengthy e-mail, including the results of my review of the C.E.F. records of your Great Uncle John Percival Gourlay.

Suffice it to say, here, that an "Attestation Paper" was the document under which a man volunteered for service in the Canadian Expeditionary Force .... so, yes, it is his "enlistment papers" in a sense.  However, keep in mind that these are archival copies .... sometimes only a duplicate (or even triplicate) copy of the original .... and many of them have notations on them clearly added at some later time, for various reasons. 

One thing I will summarize here, however, is that the "42nd" notation typed on his form is a "red herring" - his files show that (presumably for administrative purposes) they basically just stuck him briefly in the 42nd Regiment (i.e. an existing Active Militia unit, and quite distinct from the 42nd Battalion of the Canadian Expeditionary Force) while his application for enlistment as an overseas volunteer in the 80th Battalion was being processed.  Looks to me like he was on strength with the 42nd Regt. for about three weeks ( 25 Sept. to 15 Oct. 1915) before being transferred/accepted into the 80th Battalion.  And that was only for a brief period because on November 11, 1915, he was transferred to the 32nd Battery (Artillery).  It is not clear whether that transfer resulted from his own request or a perceived need by the authorities for artillerymen.  ("You're enlisted now .... we can do whatever we want with you!")

Yes, as I indicated in my previous response, I do have a number of WPG reproductions, including a complete set of the Pattern 1899 Oliver Equipment .... some of which I am in fact wearing in the Infantry photo above.  I actually have it all  .... including the leather carrier for the infamous (and short-lived) glass soda-water-bottle, although that has only been added recently to the WPG line.  I am not wearing the shoulder braces/yoke nor the valise, partly because that would be "full marching order" which is too cumbersome for the shooting activities I engage in, but also because original photographs make it clear that the troops in South Africa also usually preferred to wear only the waistbelt and large cartridge pouch, without braces or valise, even when engaged in patrols and such.  For example, here is a detail cropped from a photograph of a squad of 2RCR men returning from a route march/patrol in South Africa -


For comparison, here is a photo of British infantry on the march, wearing their standard Slade-Wallace Equipment -


I do know of WPG's reproduction Pattern 1903 serge tunic, and thought it would be absolutely ideal for a Boer War serge uniform, in view of my discovery of photos showing Canadians wearing an apparent prototype of it in the Boer War.  Unfortunately, they don't yet offer it in a size large enough for me - 6' 4", 52 to 54" chest!  (I inquired about getting a larger one made and was advised that they will likeley be able to offer larger sizes soon.)

[smoke]

RsJ....THANK YOU!  You have been a tremendous amount of help!  I have gotten your email and started wading through the links/PDF's you sent.  Great stuff!  My email has been jacked up today, I can get email but have not been able to respond.  I think squirrels are on strike today.

I really appreciate the last email, I was pretty confused about his service records but you cleared it up.  Thanks again.

You have a ton of photos!!  They are a tremendous resource for research and what was really worn/done.  It helps to answer about gear and uniforms.   BTW thanks for clearing up the P1903 tunic info.    

How is the quality of the WPG leather gear?  I have/had some bits of their uniforms and they seem to be fine quality?  

Yes, the Canadian were first to adopt the Montana peak.  You guys win or maybe we win....my mom's family was still Canadian back then.  I have to say, the Commonwealth troops were certainly a stylish group.  They looked good while getting it done.  I find this period fascinating.  Sadly I cannot find any family that participated in this era.

[RattlesnakeJack]

I've been very pleased with the quality of the reproduction Pattern 1899 Oliver equipment.

My family were arguably "Americans" once ....  they were what are usually called "Tories" down there, I believe .... but are given the much more positive name of "Loyalists" up here .... A father and the three oldest of his four Sons were all enrolled in the King's Royal Regiment of New York .... and  of course ended up in Canada.  it appears that every person in Canada with our surname is descended from one of those four sons!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I just found this on Facebook;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/forgotten-grave-in-south-african-bush-recalls-canadians/article27216